Christian S.

Back from my hols - forgot to pack my snorkel for driving in Europe....

The aforementioned Autocar edition which noted the preponderance of VW/Audi part stickers in the Cayenne (and also commented that having been the first UK car mag to see it in the flesh, it looked far better than the pics did justice), has also prophesied the slow selling Allroads doom.

Using the Cayenne/Touareg chassis the Allroad will be replaced by what is being currently dubbed as a MAC - Multi Activity Cruiser. It will have an aluminium body, be called the A7 and be aimed directly at the X5 / XC90 market.....

More wailing and nashing of teeth from one or two here I suspect

mka428

who would have thought !
a $50,000 off roading WAGON didn't sell.
And you know how those Americans love their off roading wagons..

Adrian

I always likened the Audi Allroad here in Europe the same as the Government Aircraft factory back home in Australia designing a Short Take Off and Landing Aircraft. Europe has very little offroad space left and Australia has plenty of space in which to land.
Ciao,
Adrian
911C4

mpm '95 C4

Of course I must reply (to what may be the beginning of my humble pie ingestion on this subject)...

It's taken 2 model years for the allroad to incubate here in NA, where SUVs are king (and hopped up luxury estates are clearly not the preferred transportation mode - not yet anyway). 2 model years without large scale success can mean the kiss of death to a product - especially when SUVs keep selling (cover story in today's WSJ).

But, all crow eating aside, I'll still say our allroad (loaded at $42K not $50K) is one sweet ride. The road manors, performance, utility, interior, overall fit & finish, build quality, and bulldog tough looks makes it a standout in the sea of pumped up top heavy utes. It would be a shame for Audi to stop production solely in favor of an SUV, but Bernie has been clear on this one since taking over the reins from Herr Pieche.

I'd caution anyone from crowing to loudly, because the P-fish début is still nearly a year away - an who knows what the world will look like 9 months from now. American consumers have proven time and again to be a very fickle crowd - as fast as SUVs came in vogue - they can also wither away and disappear.


Respectfully...

Adrian

Dear Mpm,
Please do not get me wrong. I actually liked the concept of the Allroad. Both my wife and I test drove one. It was very nice. The winter feature of raising the body up all very useful up to a point. My problem was the 2.7TT engine and the fact was it was a vehicle whose features could not be exploited properly. The RS4 was also cancelled a while back. The Allroad was a slow seller because of its price. Fully optioned up here was circa Euros75,000. Far too much for what you get.
I am not a great SUV either. From a personal point of view I purchase motor vehicles that I can use to their full potential and do the job they were designed for. If I cannot use the vehicle for a particular purpose it was designed for then I do not see the point in owning it. The Allroad should have been popular in the USA and Australia but I honestly believe they priced themselves out of the market. An issue for which I have criticised the Cayenne for. Just costs too much when you can have its brother for half the price.
Ciao,
Adrian
911C4

mka428

Fully Loaded comes to 49,815.

Othello

well I gotta tell you.. we absolutely love our allroad. The reason it didn't sell here in the US is because your typical American is pretty clueless about cars and/or driving. Before you get upset with that generalisation I would say that most people on this forum are excluded from that statement.

Americans like big plates of food - hence the reason why most of them are fat and close to a heart attack, big cars with big engines with no regard to whether they actually handle or not. Besides, that not an issue because they have big roads that don't require any handling. BIG BIG BIG!! They look at an SUV like the Tahoe or Suburban at tens of thousands less than a much smaller allroad and can't see the justification. It's like asking them to see the difference between a million dollar strad violin and a fiddle, or going to Paris and having a 3oz filet for the price of a 2lb slab of meat in Dallas.

Don't wish to offend but as a Brit living here for the past 10 years these are my observations.

Jay H

I agree with Adrian. Why buy something if you are not going to use it to it's fullest potential?

Case(s) in point:

My guitar player in my band owned a Dodge Durango. Guess how many times he put it in 4x4 mode over the 3.5 years he had it. Once.

Co-worker bought a 4x4 SUV. He admitted to me that he had only put it in 4x4 mode twice. Once to get out of a muddy parking spot (he wouldn't have parked there if he didn't have 4 wheel drive) and once on some slippery roads 'cause he felt like trying the 4 wheel drive out.

Co-worker #2: Single woman in her 30's has a relatively new Ford Explorer. She has NEVER put the truck in 4x4 mode over the two years she has had it.

This is in Wisconsin where we get a fair share of snow...

I highly doubt the Cheyenne will get used to it's full potential as an offroad truck by most of it's owners. Whether or not this is O.K. probably doesn't matter to Porsche as long as sales are good.

Jay
90 964

mpm '95 C4

[quote]Americans like big plates of food - hence the reason why most of them are fat and close to a heart attack, big cars with big engines with no regard to whether they actually handle or not. <hr></blockquote>
<img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" />

Pretty funny Othello, guess there is hope for the P-fish on these shores...

Adrian - I agree with your comments, that's why I can't find one car that fits all of our driving needs. But, if I had to choose one that fit most of our needs - it'd be an allroad.

With 3 dogs, a designer wife, and quarterly travel between Boston and Philadelphia (plus winter skiing and summer hiking) the allroad covers - well allroads...

Your comments do bring to mind the mixed metaphor that is the P-fish. In turbo trim, it's a 450hp 6000lb rolling piece of beef...hmmm, talk about American overkill/over consumption.

Oh BTW Matt, an allroad might list, but no one would pay $49,815 for an allroad - unless it is the loaded '03 4.2L.

Have a great weekend...

ked

MPM; I think we have here (w/ the Allroad) yet another example of "when bad things happen to good cars"... Audi's (like every auto manufacturer's) criteria for product success, & what decisions flow from adherence to those criteria, are ultimately their own. Also, w/ Piech out, we should expect change (just as was true of PAG).

Porsche likely only needs to sell 4 years (or so) production of the C in order to pay back the investment & amortize the NRE for the new power/drivetrains, that will migrate across the line. Pretty low volume targets, too, btw.

Some "analysts" of the C herein are so blinded by personal taste &/or animosity toward Porsche's course of product development that they can't see the trees for the forest. The "SUV market" is now a mature & highly segmented one. Like trucks. And like trucks, it isn't going away. Nor does it behave monolithicly.

That doesn't assure PAG of anything - forces like economic cycles & war have influence as great as they are unpredictable. For me, I'll decide about the C when I drive one. If the market likes it, fine for Porsche, if the market hates it, but I like it - fine, I might get a cheap, used, low production Porsche (ala 928) someday.

O, actually I think your remarks can be construed as offensive, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and characterize them only as uneducated, simple-minded and intolerant. Whenever people of one culture make crude generalizations about another, I wonder this; can the same style of facile commentry be made of their culture & nation (ala "of course Americans eat too much - most of 'em came from England where the food sucked for so many generations it has effected our DNA & behavior -thanks loads!"... etc etc, blah blah blah)?

From what I have read of your opinions about this land, you may be revealing more about yourself than anything else. Have at it.

Othello

[quote]Originally posted by Kevin E Davis:
<strong>
O, actually I think your remarks can be construed as offensive, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and characterize them only as uneducated, simple-minded and intolerant. Whenever people of one culture make crude generalizations about another, I wonder this; can the same style of facile commentry be made of their culture & nation (ala "of course Americans eat too much - most of 'em came from England where the food sucked for so many generations it has effected our DNA & behavior -thanks loads!"... etc etc, blah blah blah)?

From what I have read of your opinions about this land, you may be revealing more about yourself than anything else. Have at it.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Kevin... First off, I don't wish to offend anybody. Generalisations and opinions abound everywhere and are a mixture ot truths, half-truths, and outright lies. Generalisations are also based both qualitatively and quantitatively. For instance, saying that the food in England sucks is a qualitative generalisation that may or may not be true depending on your particular taste. I for one find the food in England to be fantastic. The generalisation I make about Americans being fat is quantitative. 1 in 3 American adults may be medically classified as being obese. This compares to 1 in 6 UK adults. Statistically, on a per capita basis, Americans are the fattest people on the planet. As for your comment regarding my intolerance, I ask intolerant of what? When I look at the examples I gave are you refering to my intolerance of my rising healthcare insurance premiums or medicare/medicaid payments because of the $100 billion/year in healthcosts that obesity causes? Or my intolerance to the dings in my car from the supersized suburban/expedition type SUV's that are too big for the parking spaces that mothers simply have to have (but can't drive, park, etc.) here in the USA but families in every other country in Europe seem to get along just fine without? Or my intolerance of the inability of the average Americans driving skills because the only requirement to get a license is to drive around a few cones in a parking lot and the attitude that it's a God given right to drive? If I've missed something here please tell me because my examples of Americans are pretty much on the mark from what I've seen.

As far as me being uneducated and simple-minded, perhaps we'd better not go there. This would be a rather silly path to go down.

And, of course, generalisations that are not exactly complimentary can be made about England. Usually the Brits will agree with you on that front. If you can see it, they can to. Brits are no the overly-sensitive types that many Americans seem to be. Thank God the 'feel good' generation of management and parenting has not hit those shores yet but it's only a matter of time.

We could go on and on in a debate of this nature I'm sure but my point in the post was simply about why I thought the allroad seems to be a failure here in the US. My hypothesis for it being a failure (if it truly is) is that it doesn't fit in the profile of what the average American consumer would buy. It appears to be expensive for what it is. It's not bought as a first car but more for the family. It's bought for the wife to carry the kids around in and when does the comparisons it'll lose to the likes of the Tahoe, Suburban, etc. We almost didn't buy it because the Volvo X70 was a good $8-10,000 cheaper but I can see the difference - some people might not.

Despite my comments about Americans, I have lived here for 10 years. I have made this country my home, an American my wife, and have 2 America-born kids. The evidence would suggest that I like a lot more than I dislike but that doesn't mean to say that there's imperfections in the American people or culture. Same may be said about the Brits - it's just that there's different imperfections. Once again, don't wish to offend you, particularly if you're one of the fatties.

mpm '95 C4

Mr. Davis bad day 'eh? Tell me you can't see that famed sardonic Brit wit in Othello's comments? (oops a generalization <img src="graemlins/oops.gif" border="0" alt="[oops]" /> ). But I would agree we are a nation of over-weight people - and now kids. Obesity does come at a price in health costs and overall productivity. And finding a place to park free of door swing SUVs, has become a real bitch

Your evaluation of the allroad's market acceptance (or lack there of - although it has picked up each month) is sound. It could also be an indication of the future of the P-fish. The American consumer is sometimes easy to figure, and sometimes deadly to rely on...

With Vdubs T-egg as competition, or at least comparison (with far better curb appeal IMHO), the stock-fish is around $25K more (which is an even uglier version then the turbo-fish, which is what around $45K more?). As a car distribution expert, perhaps you would agree that utes are moving, but creating a heavy long-term financial dilemma for the industry. The P-fish could suffer the same fate as the allroad.

And for overall clarity to those of us who have debated this thing for the better part of the year, please allow me to restate my position. Porsche could have made a better, cheaper and faster product off an existing VAG platform, developed the V8 and made even more ready cash for development etc...The P-fish (credit given for making such a bold and radical decision) is woefully late to market, staggeringly expensive in turbo trim, and maybe it will be beautiful in-the-flesh - but it is butt ugly on paper.

I have no problem with Porsche pushing the envelop, but only racing pushes the engineering envelope and the P-fish's creation comes at the expense of racing. Even worse, it could be argued Porsche sold out its racing heritage to cash in on Soccer moms and grocery getting duties What will future generations say?

Regards...

Android356

Well this topic gets too good to ignore so here is my $0.02 worth. Being an Audi A4 owner and then going to the '01 Audi Allroad was a switch that had no peers at the time. BMW and Mercedes were two others we considered but like the "reverse pretentious" design that Audi was promoting. Having a true four seater for "non" obese Americans is just fine, and when I have to haul my obese friends I just take my Chevy Suburban Turbo Diesel, which can haul a lot of fat (plus my boat). The Audi hauls ***, has a ton of class, which I suppose the Porsche C will have also, but it is a different animal. I saw some pictures in Autoweek that Audi is thinking of making an "SUV" of its own, so pick your own and have fun - even if you’re British and can't cook. At least you have good taste in cars and not obese like most Americans. I can't wait to see the new wagon on the A8 platform - 450 hp TT. You Allroad owners want some serious Allroad power go see: <a href="http://www.hoppenmotorsport.com/" target="_blank">http://www.hoppenmotorsport.com/</a> The modified Allroad goes 0-60 in 6.3 not bad for a 2.7L TT.

'01 Audi Allroad
'98 Porsche C2S
'95 Chevy Burb TD
''67 Ford Shelby Mustang GT 500
'59 Porsche A
'56 Porsche Speedster

Adrian

Same applies with this topic as well guys. Please start being a little bit nicer to each other. This is not the correct time to start having a go at each others throats.
I tell you, I will be glad when this Cayenne comes out so we can get some real data into this forum. Mind you I think it will be a brave Cayenne owner who sticks their neck out and posts after reading some the threads on this forum. I hope we will all welcome these new Porsche owners to our little community, regardless of personal feelings.
Ciao,
Adrian
911C4

laurence '97 C4S

Could not agree more with Adrian's last comment (even though it cuts down on the entertainment value).