JGriff

7500 miles... no issues... still lovin' it.

Now getting the scheduled service reminder showing up everytime I start it. Need to search the archives to see what it will cost and what I'll get for it. Will be making an appt. for February sometime.

Happy Holidays to all!!

TheTKDKid

Given my current budget constraints, I can only afford to have 1 vehicle at a time. I tend to get a new one very 2 years, and put about 25K miles / year on it. As a daily driver, reliability is a paramount factor for me.

I am very impressed with the performance of handling of the Cayenne, afterall, it drives like no other SUV out there. With that said, I have absolutely had it with the Porsche, and their pathetic dealer network. My Cayenne uses 1 Qt of Mobile 1 / 1K miles, and the dealer insists that this is normal! I am tired of having to drive around with a case of Mobile 1, a funnel, and paper towels in my trunk

Porsche's lack of control over their dealerships is an insult to their customers. When I bring a 100K vehicle into the dealership, I feel I should get a decent vehicle as a loaner, not the 2 year old Escort I got the last time, complete with a half empty soda sitting in the cup holder, and garbadge in the back seat.

While most other vehicle manufacturers in the high end spectrum offer touch screen Navigation systems with Bluetooth compatibility, look at what we get. No Bluetooth, no touchscreen, and no chance of getting it with replacing the entire headunit with one of the aftermarket offerings. And a voided warranty, according to my dealer, to top it off.

I could go on and on, but you guys get the point. The Cayenne clearly has some great features, but the draw backs, and the complete lack of interest on the part of PAG to fix some serious design flaws that plague some of its products has made my experience with Porsche a less than satisfying one. Next October, when I get to the 2 year 50K mile point, I will definately be unloading my Cayenne for something else.

ltc

Very sorry to hear about your dealership experiences. I'm sure you've taken the opportunity to score them low on the dealership score card follow ups? PCNA takes that info quite seriously.

My dealer has exceeded any expectation you could possibly have, top to bottom.
As I've said before, if the sold Kia's, I'd buy on; they're that good.
I've only been offered Pcars as loaners, from brand new Cayennes to a Boxster (depending on the weather!) If only the Cayenne were even close........

As for the state of Porsche infotainment, it's an ongoing source of frustration, for owners and developers (and some people who might be both )

MOST (like it or not MOST is here to stay folks) headunits (outside of one company in Japan who shall remain nameless) are ALL made by Becker in Germany. Oh, BTW, Becker is the defacto 'gatekeeper' for all MOST devices.....nice tight knit group of folks over there......really fun to work with.

Becker has their hands FULL trying to service ALL of Mercedes, top to bottom of the lineup, AND BMW..........oh yeah, and by the way Porsche too. I'll leave other the other Becker headunit customers for now.

Given the SMALL # of cars that Porsche produces (100K/year goal.....I've seen the other German car manufacturers build that in a week), how much attention do you think you will get from Becker? If Porsche says we want something new, innovative, unique, exclusive....and we need 10-20K/year, what do you think Becker's response will be?
Porsche gets slightly modified Becker off the shelf hardware. Period. End of sentence.

Look inside a Porsche (PCM or CDR23). Yup, it looks like a headunit, bolts in, pretty much fills up a single or dual DIN opening. Pretty basic stuff.
Now look inside the new S Class.....no straight lines, no standardized anything, the headunit (and its controls) are designed into the vehicle style from day 1. Why? Mercedes makes it worth Becker's time.
Do you think the new Panamera will have that level of fit/finish/function so early on in the design? I will reserve comment on that answer.

So, if you're looking for the latest in infotainment devices (and please remember that a car's design is a snapshot 3 years in the past...it takes that long to design, build and market a new vehicle...sometimes longer, so the LATEST stuff is never going to be in your showroom right away) look to Mercedes and any of the Japanese offerings (they are the acknowledged leaders in OEM Navi and Infotainment integration......I just can't see myself driving an Japanese car).

Oh and BTW, since PAG/PCNA do NOT put oil consumption (along with a lot of other things in the owner's documentation)....like for instance on that is near and dear to my heart "Check Trailer Lights"....I DARE you to find it ANYWHERE, then legally you have little recourse in stating that 1qt/1k miles is wrong or broken. They never told you what it should be and therefore how can it be broken (trust me, I've had LOTS of experience following this line of "thinking" with PCNA this past year).

Some Cayennes actually leave your choice for display (say avg MPG) on the MFD when you shut off and restart the car.....Some Cayennes ALWAYS default to avg MPH. Obviously, the car should leave its driver choices where they were set, common sense. However, does it SAY in the manual it's supposed to stay where you left it? NO, therefore, don't expect PCNA/PAG to correct the flaw (i.e. spend their profits), they'll just tell you there's nothing they can do about it, why do you think it's broken? Does it SAY in the manual it's supposed to STAY where YOU left it?
I know, then you're reply is: "Yes, I've had 6 different Cayenne loaner vehicles during my Cayenne ownership and they ALL stay where they left it, so it MUST be broken in my car". No, they will not agree.

Substitute "other people's Cayennes don't burn a qt/1K miles" and you get the idea. They're likely to claim you didn't follow the break in properly or some other excuse to say it's not their issue/fault.

Yes, the realities of the "new" Porsche.

skl

You mean I shouldn't be happy with my Grand Am loaner with 32K miles on it, with 14psi in one front tire and 24 in the other? I wondered why it handled funny on the way home... and BTW, it smelled like McDonalds on the inside??? The local dealer is mainly a Pontiac and Subaru dealer so guess what their loaners are???? Unfortunately most of their customers would probably be thrilled to get a Grand Am as a loaner- it is a race car you know, it has a wing on the trunk lid

JARO

ltc...nice post...that pretty much summarizes my Cayenne experience although my dealer has been excellent! PCNA has been tough to deal with for them as well but they managed to do what they coul dto make me a happy customer. I'm struggling to make a decision as to what I should drive next. My 03 S has been pretty darn good after all the bugs have been fixed. Drives great, mileage sucks but other then that pretty reliable vehicle. I just do not see myslef buying another one untill the face lift perhaps but that is 2 years away. I'll be on the high 40k miles at the end of 06 and so it is time to trade out of my cayenne sometime in the next 2 quarter. I was thinking about getting a 05 911 or 4S but with all that talk about the RMS failures I'm not so sure. What I know for sure that I'll not drive another SUV again unless it is a Cayenne. Nothing handles close to it. Not x5 not ML or RR.

T2

Took delivery in April 04 (it's an 04 C-TT), with just a hair over 74,000 miles.....

ltc

Jaro,
A CPO 996 C4S would make for a good daily driver from Porsche.
6/100 coverage, JUST IN CASE. From what I have heard, a C4S with proper winter tires is excellent in the snow.
Of course a 993C4(s) or a 964C4 would also make for a great daily driver....no RMS either.

RMS is a hit or miss thing......you can never experience it, but once you do, it's likely to NOT go away...EVER. 3-4 engine swaps (why the high #, because they're all remanufactured engines.....you don't get a new one) and some people still have the issue.

If you want to avoid it completely, the GT1 derived block in a GT3, GT2 (neither of which are great daily drivers, but pure heaven on a track) or a Turbo (great GT class daily driver, capapble for occasional track duty) under a CPO would also be a good choice. Early 01-02 996 Turbos are in the 60-70 range now.....overproduction does in fact lead to depreciation.

The facelift is the typical stopgap half life kick; no new Cayenne design until the Panamera is developed, so the 'new' Cayenne should be available 2009-2010.

JARO

thanks Lewis...somehow I enjoy the new look of the 997...but heard others what you are saying about the 01-02 996 turbo's....

ltc

I'm undecided on the 997 looks. To me, they simply went back to 993 style headlamps with a 996 nose....the 996Turbo when it came out in 00 (01 in US) was clearly something new/different from previous turbos, at least to me.

The depreciation is sobering. My 01 had an MSRP of $131K (LOTS of options); it's probably today worth 70 something. Hell of a car for 70 something however, especially if you can buy one with a 6/100 warranty.

JARO

yeah...hell of a car...hard to find them around here..especially at the dealer

356driver

Lewis,

Thanks for the great insight. This forum realy benefits from having input from industry insiders. You have identified some very real constraints in the present day world. But I believe market forces will reward an infotainment manufacturer that takes the next logical step and starts designing their head units as modular systems.

Engineers already recognize that infotainment systems are no longer a single box but a collection of digital subsystems. Head units can and should be designed for extensibility and configurability. Modules such as GPS, iPOD connections, satellite radio, bluetooth and wireless access should be simple add-ons similar to the PCMCIA slots in our laptop computers. To design a head unit any other way simply guarantees it will be obsolete by the time it is released three years later. The market is going to reward those manufacturers who can easily integrate new features into their systems.

Market forces are also going to punish anyone trying to control an open network specification like MOST. Becker's attempt to constrain the the development of MOST devices will inevitably lead to either failure of the spec or a revolt against the offending player. Right now Becker's self-perception is they gain a competitive advantage by making all MOST developers go through them. In reality they are setting the stage for revolt. Dension's inability to create a simple iPOD interface should be an warning to Becker. If MOST is not an open specification then it loses its reason for being, which is to enable other devices to be added to the bus after the fact. If MOST continues down this path then it will either fail, or the market will gravitate toward a manufacturer that provides a more developer-friendly MOST implementation.

One only has to look at the PC industry (or popular consumer devices such as the iPOD) to understand the market power one attains once their product is surrounded by a rich ecosystem of third party enhancements. Diverse technologies supplied by specialty companies are essential to address consumer demands and time-to-market schedules. Bill Gates describes this as a feedback loop and it has become a well-known marketing principal throughout the computer industry. However it seems to be a peculiar habit of European companies (I once worked for a French electronics company) to underestimate this effect and instead try to build walls around their products.

Ultimately, the marketing and design risks inherent in three year design-to-manufacturing of infotainment systems can be only be mitigated if both the head unit and the MOST bus are designed to be open and extensible. The computer industry learned this lesson decades ago and designs PC's as a core motherboard with a set of open slots. Dell further leveraged the concept through its build-to-order manufacturing and integration of systems. Similarly, survival in the infotainment industry will go to companies that optimizes around both design of their core product and ability to rapidly integrate new feature modules.

Market forces are going to drive the infotainment industry in the direction of open and extensible systems. Then low volume automobile companies such as Porsche will have access to the same infotainment features as the highest volume Japanese car companies.

rome

'06-- Picked it up late October and I already have 6,000 miles...

ltc

We have industry insiders right here in this forum?
Tell me who, I want to get an autograph

3 years is about the useful production design life of a headunit these days...maybe 4.

I don't think so. OEM's pick and chose, based on their suppliers (or single supplier). Customers bitch and complain, but in the end, still buy the product.

MOST is open (to members of the cooperation anyways). However Porsche MOST is different from Mercedes MOST (each OEM likes to add their own little proprietary extentions).

Agreed. This was discussed at length at the last MOST cooperation meeting. The silicon supplier to MOST (Oasis) is concerned that there are no aftermarket opportunities for their silicon. They are actively engaging 2nd tier (non OEM's) to get involved and design devices.......

Correct, the question is WHAT? Firewire? USB? In a car? EMC implications, silicon availability to 105degC, validation, qualification? yadayada......
MOST is here to stay.
BTW, would you like to hear about electrical MOST (MOST over twisted pair, NOT fiber?.....didn't think so).

Well stated, I just don't see that happening with car OEM's and their supplier base, at least not in the next 5-10 years (I can't see much beyond that....bad eyesight)

356driver

The question is who in the supplier base are we not watching - the Japanese?

You can't defeat the forces of economics. A 3-4 year product cycle seems like a very good reason to make headunits more modular. Then the whole thing doesn't have to be redesigned every 3-4 years. Maybe parts of it, but not everything in it. The headunit designers will have to go to the modular PC-style model because it will extend their product lifecycles and allow them to bound the design risks inherent in their increasingly complex systems.

I agree the OEM's tend to be loyal to their favorite 1st Tier suppliers but if someone comes along with compelling new technology then that loyalty will only go so far. For instance Porsche has got to feel they are at a disadvantage when dealing with Becker. If an equally prestigious supplier offers them a superior headunit with a wider range of potential features then they might just listen. (That being said, having spent the last 20 years in high tech sales and I know how difficult it is to unseat an incumbent supplier.)

I'm happy to hear OASIS is promoting MOST and I hope they succeed. Maybe I should dig up a couple of leads for them since they are one of our partners. Hmmm...who in the SoCal area designs automotive iPOD interfaces?

On a more serious note, OASIS will have to provide some serious support to help those 2nd Tier providers navigate the landmines left in place by the OEM's. OASIS may be the only ones who can provide this kind of assistance. More important would be for the MOST consortium to discourage these OEM extensions in the first place. The next best alternative would be to provide a way to extend MOST without violating the core protocol.

I won't bite on USB or Firewire because I know better. There is an alternative currently used (primarily) in avionics. But MOST is uniquely and specifically designed for infotainment systems so it should succeed *IF* the industry continues its path toward networked components. The true alternative to MOST is to not adopt it if it continues to be problematic for implementors. The 1st tier suppliers always have the option to stay with the tried and true approach - hardwired connections. I'm guessing the aftermarket suppliers won't cry if MOST collapses under its own weight - then they will have access to their markets just as cheaply and easily as in the past. So it's up to MOST must prove itself as the cheap and easy solution so both the 1st and 2nd Tier suppliers fall into line.

By the way, I don't care if MOST goes over fiber or twisted pair - it's all the same in the the la-la land of software.

ElmerJFudd

'05 S - 7K and have been diggin' every mile!!