Cayenne vs. Touareg
12-20-2004, 11:38 AM
#31
Moderator !x4
So as far as reality is concerned some people have had bad experiences and some have had good.
Yes PCNA could be more proactive, so could we. Instead of complaining to the dealers who filter out 90% of what we say call PCNA direct. Every time I have, things have been resolved to my satisfaction.
Are there things outstanding to improve ?- Yes.
Are they major ? - No,
Are they annoying ? - Sometimes,
Does it make it a bad vehicle ? - No.
Does the good outweigh the Bad ? - Yes
Since the early days GM Austin (Rennteam) and myself have been tracking and testing fixes so we are all aware of the issues. We have also seen some major changes done by the manfuacturer that have vastly improved the Cayenne.
Polls have been done and the results have shown that for the most we would not change our Cayennes and would buy again. The results are not even close.
Trying to use the message boards to bring pressure on Porsche will not work, they think we are all flakes anyway.
Sharing information is what we are about, being armed with facts and being able to talk to the dealer or PCNA with some confidence about issues we may not otherwise be able to put into the right words is our role. Intelligent customers are what we want to be.
There have been a lot of very angry people on this board in the past trying to push (ram) their anger down others throats.
Please try to be constructive instead of angry it serves no purpose. 99% of Cayenne buyers never look at the message boards only the enthusiasts and we have our own views.
Yes PCNA could be more proactive, so could we. Instead of complaining to the dealers who filter out 90% of what we say call PCNA direct. Every time I have, things have been resolved to my satisfaction.
Are there things outstanding to improve ?- Yes.
Are they major ? - No,
Are they annoying ? - Sometimes,
Does it make it a bad vehicle ? - No.
Does the good outweigh the Bad ? - Yes
Since the early days GM Austin (Rennteam) and myself have been tracking and testing fixes so we are all aware of the issues. We have also seen some major changes done by the manfuacturer that have vastly improved the Cayenne.
Polls have been done and the results have shown that for the most we would not change our Cayennes and would buy again. The results are not even close.
Trying to use the message boards to bring pressure on Porsche will not work, they think we are all flakes anyway.
Sharing information is what we are about, being armed with facts and being able to talk to the dealer or PCNA with some confidence about issues we may not otherwise be able to put into the right words is our role. Intelligent customers are what we want to be.
There have been a lot of very angry people on this board in the past trying to push (ram) their anger down others throats.
Please try to be constructive instead of angry it serves no purpose. 99% of Cayenne buyers never look at the message boards only the enthusiasts and we have our own views.
12-20-2004, 11:46 AM
#32
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Originally Posted by mudman2
So as far as reality is concerned some people have had bad experiences and some have had good.
Yes PCNA could be more proactive, so could we. Instead of complaining to the dealers who filter out 90% of what we say call PCNA direct. Every time I have, things have been resolved to my satisfaction.
Are there things outstanding to improve ?- Yes.
Are they major ? - No,
Are they annoying ? - Sometimes,
Does it make it a bad vehicle ? - No.
Does the good outweigh the Bad ? - Yes
Since the early days GM Austin (Rennteam) and myself have been tracking and testing fixes so we are all aware of the issues. We have also seen some major changes done by the manfuacturer that have vastly improved the Cayenne.
Polls have been done and the results have shown that for the most we would not change our Cayennes and would buy again. The results are not even close.
Trying to use the message boards to bring pressure on Porsche will not work, they think we are all flakes anyway.
Sharing information is what we are about, being armed with facts and being able to talk to the dealer or PCNA with some confidence about issues we may not otherwise be able to put into the right words is our role. Intelligent customers are what we want to be.
There have been a lot of very angry people on this board in the past trying to push (ram) their anger down others throats.
Please try to be constructive instead of angry it serves no purpose. 99% of Cayenne buyers never look at the message boards only the enthusiasts and we have our own views.
Yes PCNA could be more proactive, so could we. Instead of complaining to the dealers who filter out 90% of what we say call PCNA direct. Every time I have, things have been resolved to my satisfaction.
Are there things outstanding to improve ?- Yes.
Are they major ? - No,
Are they annoying ? - Sometimes,
Does it make it a bad vehicle ? - No.
Does the good outweigh the Bad ? - Yes
Since the early days GM Austin (Rennteam) and myself have been tracking and testing fixes so we are all aware of the issues. We have also seen some major changes done by the manfuacturer that have vastly improved the Cayenne.
Polls have been done and the results have shown that for the most we would not change our Cayennes and would buy again. The results are not even close.
Trying to use the message boards to bring pressure on Porsche will not work, they think we are all flakes anyway.
Sharing information is what we are about, being armed with facts and being able to talk to the dealer or PCNA with some confidence about issues we may not otherwise be able to put into the right words is our role. Intelligent customers are what we want to be.
There have been a lot of very angry people on this board in the past trying to push (ram) their anger down others throats.
Please try to be constructive instead of angry it serves no purpose. 99% of Cayenne buyers never look at the message boards only the enthusiasts and we have our own views.
Having my (and others) problems reduced to "personalities" as a way to demean and minimize the difficulites is indeed very frustrating however.
BTW, GM Austin has readily admitted his problem was not solved by the W516 "fix" either. RC, the owner/mgr of Rennteam, as big a Porsche freak as you'll ever find, is similarly dissatisfied with the hesitation in his CT and has gone through many sources at PAG to rectify the problem - to no avail.
12-20-2004, 12:29 PM
#33
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Originally Posted by yetis
How anyone tried the 10 cylinder diesel Touareg?
http://www.rennteam.com/showflat.php...true#Post57360
12-20-2004, 12:33 PM
#34
Moderator !x4
I am not auguing that there are not still things to iron out, there are.
A "real user" test period would have been great to help resolve most of these, but I know of no car manufacturer that does that.
We were it, no question.
A "real user" test period would have been great to help resolve most of these, but I know of no car manufacturer that does that.
We were it, no question.
12-20-2004, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by ben in lj
...PCNA's lack of motivation to get involved until it starts screwing with PR - er: sales (ie: NHTSA)!
The folks at Customer Commitment just seemed to express a bit of interest when I noted that I had filed several complaints with the NHTSA. I think it served to get the point across that I was really dissatisfied and just going to play victim and whine about it.
I know you have your reasons for not spending 5 mins on the phone with PCNA but have you gotten around to filing complaints with the NHTSA? If you are too busy to do the NHTSA filing this perhaps you could post or get the details of your vehicle and incidents to me so I could play secretary and file on your behalf.
Last edited by bancu; 12-20-2004 at 01:09 PM.
12-20-2004, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by bancu
I know you have your reasons for not spending 5 mins on the phone with PCNA but have you gotten around to filing complaints with the NHTSA? If you are too busy to do the NHTSA filing this perhaps you could post or get the details of your vehicle and incidents to me so I could play secretary and file on your behalf.
BTW, here are some more postings from owners experiencing the same problem(s) so that anyone interested in a new one has their eyes open as to whether the problem is fixed (or even acknowledged) yet:
11/03 (over a year ago and still no fix):
http://www.rennteam.com/showflat.php...rt=&PHPSESSID=
12/03:
http://www.rennteam.com/showflat.php...rt=&PHPSESSID=
8/04:
http://www.rennteam.com/showflat.php...rt=&PHPSESSID=
10/04:
http://www.rennteam.com/showflat.php...0&page=2#54918
The futility of owner's efforts thus far is readily apparent in these threads.
12-20-2004, 01:43 PM
#37
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Originally Posted by ben in lj
I've had it bookmarked ever since you presented it and as much as I hate to do it, I think I'm going to.
That written, I hated to do it too. With my 356, 911 and Southern "roots" I felt like it was going outside of the family. With the internal Porsche AG stuff that I'm betting is going on over this issue, I just don't see where we have been left with a choice.
Can you imagine being the marketing or project manager that figured a few more dollars could be made with a Power Kit and cut features ("changed accelerator pedal characteristics", "optimised torque buildup", "reinforced brake system") from the CT to make it more marketable down the line?
I don't doubt for a minute that there are a few folks in power that probably overruled the engineers and said that what we're experiencing is acceptable so they could have another win with a follow-on option or model enhancement. Now they're sitting there knowing the engineers are going to say "I told you so" and scared that upper management is going to find out that shipped a product with known safety issues. They sure aren't going to turn out to be the golden 'boys' they thought they were. If we're right, and this really is an issue for more than a few people, we're talking about issues that go beyond tarnishing the Porsche brand here in a big way.
12-20-2004, 01:54 PM
#38
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I'd like to weigh in on the hesitation issue.
I had it (before remapping) now I don't, but I had adjusted my driving style - to feather the throttle prior to punching when doing an aggressive merge. I had asked for the adaptive driving feature to be disconnected if possible (don't know if they did).
Now my truck seems to surge everytime I leave a stop (which requires driving style adjustment).
I think sudden starts like I now have, puts additional wear on the transmission. The transmission is sealed and if it breaks (or a part of) it must be replaced.
Bottom line - I'm ambivalent about the fix.
I had it (before remapping) now I don't, but I had adjusted my driving style - to feather the throttle prior to punching when doing an aggressive merge. I had asked for the adaptive driving feature to be disconnected if possible (don't know if they did).
Now my truck seems to surge everytime I leave a stop (which requires driving style adjustment).
I think sudden starts like I now have, puts additional wear on the transmission. The transmission is sealed and if it breaks (or a part of) it must be replaced.
Bottom line - I'm ambivalent about the fix.
12-20-2004, 02:02 PM
#39
Rennlist Member
You know I am jumping in late here and didn't have a chance to read everything in this thread.
However, not all is bad with these vehicles. I know of many more people that appear to be having much greater problems with the Toureg than the Cayenne. Other than the issues noted on Rennlist all the people I know who have a Cayenne have had little to no problems. I am fortunate enough to have a vehicle that so far has been fine. It was a December 03 build and I am very pleased with the power performance and reliability. There have been a few glitches with the CD player and I have slight air leak from the drivers door, along with the typical headlight condensation problem. Yet this is nothing in comparison with the problems I know people to have with their new MB and BMW products. From the stories I have been hearing along with my personnal experiances I would rather have a problem with a new Porsche than I would with a MB or BMW. There is no factory suport at all Period!!! BMW tried telling me that water leaking in from a leaky windshield was inherent to the car. My mothers MB had a piece of interior fall off in the rear of the car. They claimed that someone broke it and it would not be covered. Funny thing is nobody has ever sat in the rear of her car. What kind of BS is that. Try getting your MB in for a service. They are so backed up with issues that the local dealerships (which there are many) won't make an appointment for less than 2 months, and the conversations I have had with the service techs are that these things are becoming major nightmares to own and repair.
Don't forget these companies are businesses first and as with any businsess they are here to make a profit. I think you take a chance with any new car you buy today. Too many electronics and not enough testing time to really understand where it is all leading. The need to beat out the competition to the marketplace first has overtaken the need to guarrentee a quality product.
Good Luck in your decision and don't let other peoples problems deter your decision to buy a fine vehicle. If you are not sure tell your dealership that the sale is contingent on a thorough test of the vehicle you are buying before you buy. I would insist on several hours to drive it and see for yourself. They sell new cars with 2-300 miles on them all the time. Nobody wants to loose a sale. It can't hurt to try.
However, not all is bad with these vehicles. I know of many more people that appear to be having much greater problems with the Toureg than the Cayenne. Other than the issues noted on Rennlist all the people I know who have a Cayenne have had little to no problems. I am fortunate enough to have a vehicle that so far has been fine. It was a December 03 build and I am very pleased with the power performance and reliability. There have been a few glitches with the CD player and I have slight air leak from the drivers door, along with the typical headlight condensation problem. Yet this is nothing in comparison with the problems I know people to have with their new MB and BMW products. From the stories I have been hearing along with my personnal experiances I would rather have a problem with a new Porsche than I would with a MB or BMW. There is no factory suport at all Period!!! BMW tried telling me that water leaking in from a leaky windshield was inherent to the car. My mothers MB had a piece of interior fall off in the rear of the car. They claimed that someone broke it and it would not be covered. Funny thing is nobody has ever sat in the rear of her car. What kind of BS is that. Try getting your MB in for a service. They are so backed up with issues that the local dealerships (which there are many) won't make an appointment for less than 2 months, and the conversations I have had with the service techs are that these things are becoming major nightmares to own and repair.
Don't forget these companies are businesses first and as with any businsess they are here to make a profit. I think you take a chance with any new car you buy today. Too many electronics and not enough testing time to really understand where it is all leading. The need to beat out the competition to the marketplace first has overtaken the need to guarrentee a quality product.
Good Luck in your decision and don't let other peoples problems deter your decision to buy a fine vehicle. If you are not sure tell your dealership that the sale is contingent on a thorough test of the vehicle you are buying before you buy. I would insist on several hours to drive it and see for yourself. They sell new cars with 2-300 miles on them all the time. Nobody wants to loose a sale. It can't hurt to try.
12-20-2004, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Torags
...but I had adjusted my driving style - to feather the throttle prior to punching when doing an aggressive merge.
While I can work around some of the issues by adjusting my style, it's not the answer when other people are driving the vehicle infrequently. I've lived for years having to tell people that they need to floor Mercedes if they really want to go and that lugging a high performance engine is not the way to drive it. That written, to me, it is unacceptable that the Cayenne reacts at a sub par level related to other vehicles on the road when it comes to a safety concern like consistent acceleration.
As I've hinted at in notes to Porsche AG, the design goal for a vehicle in the Cayenne's class should be for it to behave as other vehicles when driven "normally" (depressing the accelerator pedal means accelerate as linearly and smoothly as possible...that includes reasonable and timely downshifts to get things kicked up a bit..., slamming the accelerator pedal to the floor means downshift to the lowest possible gear and give me everything you've got). Following that, a vehicle of the Cayenne's caliber, should exceed the capabilities of regular vehicles when its advanced functions (blipping the accelerator pedal to select and hold a lower gear...I love this by the way..., holding gears longer with quick accelerator pedal movements, etc.) can be utilized and are called upon. I've never driven anything (big block sedan to high revving sports car, truck to van, SUV to PSUV) that behaves as inconsistently to accelerator pedal inputs as the Cayenne seems to.
12-20-2004, 03:00 PM
#41
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You know, good point. I had my CT out this weekend and drove on some great roads up to Bear Mtn NY, Rt 6 and other roads. I would never attempt to drive this thing fast without using the tip in manual mode. I find the vehicle to be amazingly responsive for something of this size and weight and for it to handle very tight corners with decent precision considering its size. The one thing I could do without is the feeling of my stomuch turning, going over the crests of the hills. No matter how well these things handle you really can feel their weight under these conditions. With all of this things capabilities, I never would expect it to handle or respond as well as my 3.6T. Maybe that is why so many are complaining? Is everyone expecting to much form this thing? It handles amazingly well and feels at times like a 911 however, it is not, plain and simple. It is a very capable SUV and to expect it to perform as well as a 911 in auto mode may be expecting to much.
If everyone is so concerned about this hitation issue why is nobody driving it in manual mode when critical responsiveness is required? I don't see how it is possible to get any kind of control out of these things unless you are in full control of the RPMs and that will never happen in Auto.
I have driven my cousins 996 tip on several occasions and find although it is better than the CT it has inherent issues also. To me it is part of driving an auto tranny. I wouldn''t drive any of the tip cars hard without being in manual mode.
Just my $.02 worth.
If everyone is so concerned about this hitation issue why is nobody driving it in manual mode when critical responsiveness is required? I don't see how it is possible to get any kind of control out of these things unless you are in full control of the RPMs and that will never happen in Auto.
I have driven my cousins 996 tip on several occasions and find although it is better than the CT it has inherent issues also. To me it is part of driving an auto tranny. I wouldn''t drive any of the tip cars hard without being in manual mode.
Just my $.02 worth.
12-20-2004, 03:03 PM
#42
Moderator !x4
Here here Cobalt
My dealer allowed me 24 hr test drives twice before I bought. BMW and Infinity did the same. The eGas system is, believe it or not, much better than the original release.
Torags, you are describing the "Lurching" issue which was cured by remapping the DME last year. Sounds to me like your in need of other updates, better get them done before you spill cement :-).
My dealer allowed me 24 hr test drives twice before I bought. BMW and Infinity did the same. The eGas system is, believe it or not, much better than the original release.
Torags, you are describing the "Lurching" issue which was cured by remapping the DME last year. Sounds to me like your in need of other updates, better get them done before you spill cement :-).
12-20-2004, 03:20 PM
#43
Instructor
I just picked up my '05 V6 Cayenne at Loeber and had a great experience. Lance was my salesman too. I asked about their loaner car policy before closing the deal and Lance committed that I would get either a Mercedes or Porsche for loaner (Loeber sells both). Once they complete separate showrooms and service bays for both marques that policy may change and Porsche customers may get Porsche loaners. Hopefully so, but I can live with a Mercedes. Just no Accords or Grand Prixs - yechhhhh.
Drew
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12-20-2004, 03:33 PM
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ben in lj-
I have to ask something that I suppose I only hinted towards in the first part of this thread: why do you continue to buy Porsche? I don't know nearly as much as you seem to, nor have I or do I own multiple Porsches such as yourself. But if you're willing to spend the money on cars that it seems you do, you have got a myriad of other choices you could buy. I've been mulling a CGT and I think I noticed in that forum that you have a Ferrari as well. But just owning other exotic cars still doesn't answer the question: Why buy it if you don't like it?
Honestly, I don't mean this argumentatively. A partner of mine constantly complains and hates Microsoft Windows and I just don't understand why he doesn't buy Apple. For him compatibility is much less of an issue now and for what he uses computers for, he really has no excuse. Maybe you do, but I'm curious why you wouldn't dump the CGT, and any other Porsches you may still own. (except the Cayenne if your wife likes it.) Don't buy it.
There are brands I don't like and I'm not about to torture myself by buying them....despite being great cars. I hate BMW- great cars, but I don't like them. I suppose I'm just curious what compels one to spend $450k on a car when one has so little faith in the brand.
I don't think Mudman meant anything personal by the 'personality' statement, any point he was trying to make, you more than made for him in your subsequent posts.
I have to ask something that I suppose I only hinted towards in the first part of this thread: why do you continue to buy Porsche? I don't know nearly as much as you seem to, nor have I or do I own multiple Porsches such as yourself. But if you're willing to spend the money on cars that it seems you do, you have got a myriad of other choices you could buy. I've been mulling a CGT and I think I noticed in that forum that you have a Ferrari as well. But just owning other exotic cars still doesn't answer the question: Why buy it if you don't like it?
Honestly, I don't mean this argumentatively. A partner of mine constantly complains and hates Microsoft Windows and I just don't understand why he doesn't buy Apple. For him compatibility is much less of an issue now and for what he uses computers for, he really has no excuse. Maybe you do, but I'm curious why you wouldn't dump the CGT, and any other Porsches you may still own. (except the Cayenne if your wife likes it.) Don't buy it.
There are brands I don't like and I'm not about to torture myself by buying them....despite being great cars. I hate BMW- great cars, but I don't like them. I suppose I'm just curious what compels one to spend $450k on a car when one has so little faith in the brand.
I don't think Mudman meant anything personal by the 'personality' statement, any point he was trying to make, you more than made for him in your subsequent posts.
12-20-2004, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by phantomias33
ben in lj-
I have to ask something that I suppose I only hinted towards in the first part of this thread: why do you continue to buy Porsche? I don't know nearly as much as you seem to, nor have I or do I own multiple Porsches such as yourself. But if you're willing to spend the money on cars that it seems you do, you have got a myriad of other choices you could buy. I've been mulling a CGT and I think I noticed in that forum that you have a Ferrari as well. But just owning other exotic cars still doesn't answer the question: Why buy it if you don't like it?
Honestly, I don't mean this argumentatively. A partner of mine constantly complains and hates Microsoft Windows and I just don't understand why he doesn't buy Apple. For him compatibility is much less of an issue now and for what he uses computers for, he really has no excuse. Maybe you do, but I'm curious why you wouldn't dump the CGT, and any other Porsches you may still own. (except the Cayenne if your wife likes it.) Don't buy it.
There are brands I don't like and I'm not about to torture myself by buying them....despite being great cars. I hate BMW- great cars, but I don't like them. I suppose I'm just curious what compels one to spend $450k on a car when one has so little faith in the brand.
I don't think Mudman meant anything personal by the 'personality' statement, any point he was trying to make, you more than made for him in your subsequent posts.
I have to ask something that I suppose I only hinted towards in the first part of this thread: why do you continue to buy Porsche? I don't know nearly as much as you seem to, nor have I or do I own multiple Porsches such as yourself. But if you're willing to spend the money on cars that it seems you do, you have got a myriad of other choices you could buy. I've been mulling a CGT and I think I noticed in that forum that you have a Ferrari as well. But just owning other exotic cars still doesn't answer the question: Why buy it if you don't like it?
Honestly, I don't mean this argumentatively. A partner of mine constantly complains and hates Microsoft Windows and I just don't understand why he doesn't buy Apple. For him compatibility is much less of an issue now and for what he uses computers for, he really has no excuse. Maybe you do, but I'm curious why you wouldn't dump the CGT, and any other Porsches you may still own. (except the Cayenne if your wife likes it.) Don't buy it.
There are brands I don't like and I'm not about to torture myself by buying them....despite being great cars. I hate BMW- great cars, but I don't like them. I suppose I'm just curious what compels one to spend $450k on a car when one has so little faith in the brand.
I don't think Mudman meant anything personal by the 'personality' statement, any point he was trying to make, you more than made for him in your subsequent posts.
"I don't think Mudman meant anything personal by the 'personality' statement, any point he was trying to make, you more than made for him in your subsequent posts."
What was that supposed to mean?