Cayenne vs. Touareg
12-20-2004, 04:29 PM
#46
Rennlist Member
Ben,
My intent was not to make this a personal pissing contest and I appoligize if I came accross that way. It just seems that you are so angry with Porsche and feel they make ****ty vehicles. I could not disagree more. While I do not have a CGT I do have an 04 CT and a 02 996 TT both of which are unbelievable cars in my opinion. I would not give either one up for anything in their price range.
This might not be the road you want to take but have you considered Fabspeed cat bypass pipes? These gave me a noticable difference in throttle response. It might help with your hesitation problem.
If I were you I would take my vehicle to your dealer and make them fix it. There are fixes available. You should be an important customer since you have purchased two top of the line vehicle - CT & CGT.
Sorry to hear about your issues but in all my experience with Cayennes nobody seems to be as angry as you. Everyone I've talked to has said they have had some issues but they were all taken care of through recalls.
Good luck,
Todd
My intent was not to make this a personal pissing contest and I appoligize if I came accross that way. It just seems that you are so angry with Porsche and feel they make ****ty vehicles. I could not disagree more. While I do not have a CGT I do have an 04 CT and a 02 996 TT both of which are unbelievable cars in my opinion. I would not give either one up for anything in their price range.
This might not be the road you want to take but have you considered Fabspeed cat bypass pipes? These gave me a noticable difference in throttle response. It might help with your hesitation problem.
If I were you I would take my vehicle to your dealer and make them fix it. There are fixes available. You should be an important customer since you have purchased two top of the line vehicle - CT & CGT.
Sorry to hear about your issues but in all my experience with Cayennes nobody seems to be as angry as you. Everyone I've talked to has said they have had some issues but they were all taken care of through recalls.
Good luck,
Todd
12-20-2004, 04:43 PM
#47
Three Wheelin'
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Posts: 1,572
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by mudman2
Torags, you are describing the "Lurching" issue which was cured by remapping the DME last year. Sounds to me like your in need of other updates, better get them done before you spill cement :-).
I forgot a point that may be related to the hesitation issue...
It seems most people on this board have sedan like expectations for performance, it's a goddamn truck (albeit with attitude)
This is a 5,000lb+ vehicle with a tow capacity of 6,600lb. the steel sprung trucks are harsh because they are designed for that load (PASM adjusts). Perhaps the fuel supply was designed with this in mind....
I would feel real uncomfortable smashing the accelerater with my 6,000lb boat load behind me, so I don't.
My .02.
12-20-2004, 04:44 PM
#48
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,598
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Truble10
Ben,
My intent was not to make this a personal pissing contest and I appoligize if I came accross that way. It just seems that you are so angry with Porsche and feel they make ****ty vehicles. I could not disagree more. While I do not have a CGT I do have an 04 CT and a 02 996 TT both of which are unbelievable cars in my opinion. I would not give either one up for anything in their price range.
This might not be the road you want to take but have you considered Fabspeed cat bypass pipes? These gave me a noticable difference in throttle response. It might help with your hesitation problem.
If I were you I would take my vehicle to your dealer and make them fix it. There are fixes available. You should be an important customer since you have purchased two top of the line vehicle - CT & CGT.
Sorry to hear about your issues but in all my experience with Cayennes nobody seems to be as angry as you. Everyone I've talked to has said they have had some issues but they were all taken care of through recalls.
Good luck,
Todd
My intent was not to make this a personal pissing contest and I appoligize if I came accross that way. It just seems that you are so angry with Porsche and feel they make ****ty vehicles. I could not disagree more. While I do not have a CGT I do have an 04 CT and a 02 996 TT both of which are unbelievable cars in my opinion. I would not give either one up for anything in their price range.
This might not be the road you want to take but have you considered Fabspeed cat bypass pipes? These gave me a noticable difference in throttle response. It might help with your hesitation problem.
If I were you I would take my vehicle to your dealer and make them fix it. There are fixes available. You should be an important customer since you have purchased two top of the line vehicle - CT & CGT.
Sorry to hear about your issues but in all my experience with Cayennes nobody seems to be as angry as you. Everyone I've talked to has said they have had some issues but they were all taken care of through recalls.
Good luck,
Todd
As you can see from my links to voluminous threads, apparently "everyone" is not satisfied nor did they find TSB 516 to be corrective. The guys at my dealership are pretty ok guys. I'm sure if they "could" fix it, they would have (on both attempts). Similarly like I said earlier, my friend took his to the other dealer nearly a 1/2 dozen times and found no relief for the hesitation. My experience with my dealer and his with the other coupled with the large # of internet posted experiences leaves me rather skeptical. As well, they can't fix the excessive tire wearing (to the wear bars) at 6k miles (perfect wear all along the tire ruling out alignment or pressure problems) nor the need for a quart of oil every 1k miles because both conditions are considered "normal" (even though they said avg tire wear is 12 to 15k).
Again though, it's my wife's car and ever since they finally got the fix for the completely inoperable remotes (it was "normal" back when I first addressed it in June after our purchase) and rear glass popping open by itself all the time, the car is plenty acceptable - especially to her. However, whenever anyone "asks" (like they did at the beginning of this thread) about the Cayenne, I am going to provide them with the same information I wish I would have had prior to our purchase. That way, they can make a more informed decision than I did.
PS. Do you think there is any coincidence to Porsche JD Powers ratings plummetting after the roll out of the Cayenne?
12-20-2004, 04:55 PM
#49
Racer
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 367
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by cobalt
You know, good point. I had my CT out this weekend and drove on some great roads up to Bear Mtn NY, Rt 6 and other roads. I would never attempt to drive this thing fast without using the tip in manual mode. I find the vehicle to be amazingly responsive for something of this size and weight and for it to handle very tight corners with decent precision considering its size. The one thing I could do without is the feeling of my stomuch turning, going over the crests of the hills. No matter how well these things handle you really can feel their weight under these conditions. With all of this things capabilities, I never would expect it to handle or respond as well as my 3.6T. Maybe that is why so many are complaining? Is everyone expecting to much form this thing? It handles amazingly well and feels at times like a 911 however, it is not, plain and simple. It is a very capable SUV and to expect it to perform as well as a 911 in auto mode may be expecting to much.
If everyone is so concerned about this hitation issue why is nobody driving it in manual mode when critical responsiveness is required? I don't see how it is possible to get any kind of control out of these things unless you are in full control of the RPMs and that will never happen in Auto.
I have driven my cousins 996 tip on several occasions and find although it is better than the CT it has inherent issues also. To me it is part of driving an auto tranny. I wouldn''t drive any of the tip cars hard without being in manual mode.
Just my $.02 worth.
If everyone is so concerned about this hitation issue why is nobody driving it in manual mode when critical responsiveness is required? I don't see how it is possible to get any kind of control out of these things unless you are in full control of the RPMs and that will never happen in Auto.
I have driven my cousins 996 tip on several occasions and find although it is better than the CT it has inherent issues also. To me it is part of driving an auto tranny. I wouldn''t drive any of the tip cars hard without being in manual mode.
Just my $.02 worth.
I don't like, but can work around: the PCM randomly rebooting/not playing some CDs, condensation in the head lights, inadequate NAV data, the stupidity of only having one button on the remote for lock and unlock, and the remotes only working when I am right next to the truck. I consider these inconsequential gremlins. Most of which were nailed by my dealer in one visit. Others result from Porsche just being too cheap or hung up on nonfunctional design concerns, the 'hesitation'/ downshift issue, and my uncertainty that Porsche will step up the plate and fix it, is my only _real_ concern.
I love the Cayenne's handling and don't expect it to behave like _any_ sports car. I'm continually surprised when I push it and it behaves close enough to a sports sedan. Heck, both my Wife and I are thrilled when taking Interstate speed turns with the fact that it doesn't lean (like the big whale it is) and our ML55 does.
Where I'm frustrated beyond belief is not when I can drive the Cayenne hard but around town with intercity traffic. Tipping has been as inconsistent for me in these situations. Sometimes it drops down where I want it. Sometimes it seems to ignore a tip and then drop down two gears when I tip it second time. I find blipping the accelerator pedal gets me where I want to be gear wise much more consistently but this isn't feature that can always be used in intercity traffic.
I thought I'd have a fight on my hand when I went over this with my PCNA rep but I didn't. He knew exactly where I was coming from. On top of this he noted before I did that tipping and turning PSM off wasn't a viable answer for everyday driving in town.
The kicker for me is that tipping isn't needed when I drive other competitive PSUVs or even SUVs (not sports cars) around town. At the least, Mercedes has managed to give _me_ enough "control of the RPMs" in their ML entire line that I expect, in any vehicle, and don't get in the Cayenne.
12-20-2004, 04:59 PM
#50
Rennlist Member
Just curious but the Porsche Technik manual on this car states the CT can tow 7500 pounds.
To the other side although Ben in Lj states that everyone has these issues as confirmed by his links. I can tell you I know just as many people that are completely satisfied as am I.
Although, if quality is an issue nothing compares to the earlier Poresche's. My 3.6T has all I need from a Porsche and the quality is outstanding. It will never come close to what a CGT can do, but it sure brings a smile to my face and I honestly don't know were you can drive something like the CGT other than the track to really appreciate it. I barely can use the power of my 3.6T. My fathers friends Enzo sits in the garage more than I would ever care to allow it because he has no place to drive it without concerns.
To the other side although Ben in Lj states that everyone has these issues as confirmed by his links. I can tell you I know just as many people that are completely satisfied as am I.
Although, if quality is an issue nothing compares to the earlier Poresche's. My 3.6T has all I need from a Porsche and the quality is outstanding. It will never come close to what a CGT can do, but it sure brings a smile to my face and I honestly don't know were you can drive something like the CGT other than the track to really appreciate it. I barely can use the power of my 3.6T. My fathers friends Enzo sits in the garage more than I would ever care to allow it because he has no place to drive it without concerns.
12-20-2004, 04:59 PM
#51
Rennlist Member
Ben,
The Fabspeed by pass pipes are not loud from the cockpit. In fact when I first got it I could not tell a difference and had to stand behind the vehicle with a friend hitting the throttle to hear a difference. From behind it does have a nice rumble and it really helps the throttle response. It has also had no effect on my warranty according to my dealership.
J.D. Powers has no bearing what so ever on what vehicle I drive. I could not tell you where Porsche ranks. They could be dead last and I will still be driving one because I feel they make the best performance vehicles.
The Fabspeed by pass pipes are not loud from the cockpit. In fact when I first got it I could not tell a difference and had to stand behind the vehicle with a friend hitting the throttle to hear a difference. From behind it does have a nice rumble and it really helps the throttle response. It has also had no effect on my warranty according to my dealership.
J.D. Powers has no bearing what so ever on what vehicle I drive. I could not tell you where Porsche ranks. They could be dead last and I will still be driving one because I feel they make the best performance vehicles.
12-20-2004, 05:20 PM
#52
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by bancu
I question continually if I'm expecting to much from the Cayenne. The answer I keep on coming up with is no.
I don't like, but can work around: the PCM randomly rebooting/not playing some CDs, condensation in the head lights, inadequate NAV data, the stupidity of only having one button on the remote for lock and unlock, and the remotes only working when I am right next to the truck. I consider these inconsequential gremlins. Most of which were nailed by my dealer in one visit. Others result from Porsche just being too cheap or hung up on nonfunctional design concerns, the 'hesitation'/ downshift issue, and my uncertainty that Porsche will step up the plate and fix it, is my only _real_ concern.
I love the Cayenne's handling and don't expect it to behave like _any_ sports car. I'm continually surprised when I push it and it behaves close enough to a sports sedan. Heck, both my Wife and I are thrilled when taking Interstate speed turns with the fact that it doesn't lean (like the big whale it is) and our ML55 does.
Where I'm frustrated beyond belief is not when I can drive the Cayenne hard but around town with intercity traffic. Tipping has been as inconsistent for me in these situations. Sometimes it drops down where I want it. Sometimes it seems to ignore a tip and then drop down two gears when I tip it second time. I find blipping the accelerator pedal gets me where I want to be gear wise much more consistently but this isn't feature that can always be used in intercity traffic.
I thought I'd have a fight on my hand when I went over this with my PCNA rep but I didn't. He knew exactly where I was coming from. On top of this he noted before I did that tipping and turning PSM off wasn't a viable answer for everyday driving in town.
The kicker for me is that tipping isn't needed when I drive other competitive PSUVs or even SUVs (not sports cars) around town. At the least, Mercedes has managed to give _me_ enough "control of the RPMs" in their ML entire line that I expect, in any vehicle, and don't get in the Cayenne.
I don't like, but can work around: the PCM randomly rebooting/not playing some CDs, condensation in the head lights, inadequate NAV data, the stupidity of only having one button on the remote for lock and unlock, and the remotes only working when I am right next to the truck. I consider these inconsequential gremlins. Most of which were nailed by my dealer in one visit. Others result from Porsche just being too cheap or hung up on nonfunctional design concerns, the 'hesitation'/ downshift issue, and my uncertainty that Porsche will step up the plate and fix it, is my only _real_ concern.
I love the Cayenne's handling and don't expect it to behave like _any_ sports car. I'm continually surprised when I push it and it behaves close enough to a sports sedan. Heck, both my Wife and I are thrilled when taking Interstate speed turns with the fact that it doesn't lean (like the big whale it is) and our ML55 does.
Where I'm frustrated beyond belief is not when I can drive the Cayenne hard but around town with intercity traffic. Tipping has been as inconsistent for me in these situations. Sometimes it drops down where I want it. Sometimes it seems to ignore a tip and then drop down two gears when I tip it second time. I find blipping the accelerator pedal gets me where I want to be gear wise much more consistently but this isn't feature that can always be used in intercity traffic.
I thought I'd have a fight on my hand when I went over this with my PCNA rep but I didn't. He knew exactly where I was coming from. On top of this he noted before I did that tipping and turning PSM off wasn't a viable answer for everyday driving in town.
The kicker for me is that tipping isn't needed when I drive other competitive PSUVs or even SUVs (not sports cars) around town. At the least, Mercedes has managed to give _me_ enough "control of the RPMs" in their ML entire line that I expect, in any vehicle, and don't get in the Cayenne.
Maybe it is were I live but the nav to me is far superior than the one I had on my BMW. It has never missed a destination and corrects itself almost instantly. I live close to Manhattan so this may be why but I see nothing wrong with it. In fact it is the same system as in my mothers MB just shaped differently. At least this system only requires 2 discs, one for the east coast the other for the west. The DVD BMW system required 6 and almost never would accept an address if it wasn't located near a large city.
I never drove the ML55. I have a friend who has one and his complaint about it is very similar to your complaint about the Cayenne. I do not have the problems you are experiencing so I cannot sympathize with you. It must be very frustrating. I will say that of the ML500's and 430's I had driven I was beyond disappointed in the lack of responsiveness compared to what I feel I have in the CT.
I was not directing my comments towards anyone in particular.
I guess not having the same problems you appear to be having doesn't allow me to relate. It may be found out over time that these systems may have underlying problems that only a scattered few are subjected to. Or it may be a case of disappointment based on expectations. I don't know. Maybe in the spring we should schedule a Cayenne meet someplace were the happy and the sad can meet and swap cars to truly compare and see what the other is experiencing. It may lead to answers that talking about it may never resolve.
12-20-2004, 05:24 PM
#53
Super Moderator
Needs More Cowbell
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Needs More Cowbell
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Originally Posted by cobalt
If everyone is so concerned about this hitation issue why is nobody driving it in manual mode when critical responsiveness is required? I don't see how it is possible to get any kind of control out of these things unless you are in full control of the RPMs and that will never happen in Auto.
I may have a different idea of 'critical responsiveness', but I was surprised to find out that when driving in manual mode, kickdown is disabled.
Of course, I was lucky enough to discover this while towing my Cup car/enclosed trailer (about #5200) when I floored the eGas/accelerator while in 5th and nothing happened!
Kickdown does work in Auto mode, but towing in auto mode does nothing but make the transmission shift from 6th to 5th to 6th (you can't really tow 5200# using auto mode unless it is perfectly flat with no wind).
I'll just have to learn to adapt my driving style.
12-20-2004, 05:26 PM
#54
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,598
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks Truble.
Cobalt, I refuse to answer on the grounds I might incrimenate myself, but I will tell you I enjoy a considerable amount of what the CGT offers on a more frequent basis than I probably should :-) FWIW, I just drove the Stradale for the first time in over a week. It is ungodly slow compared to the CGT!
Cobalt, I refuse to answer on the grounds I might incrimenate myself, but I will tell you I enjoy a considerable amount of what the CGT offers on a more frequent basis than I probably should :-) FWIW, I just drove the Stradale for the first time in over a week. It is ungodly slow compared to the CGT!
12-20-2004, 05:35 PM
#55
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by ben in lj
Thanks Truble.
Cobalt, I refuse to answer on the grounds I might incrimenate myself, but I will tell you I enjoy a considerable amount of what the CGT offers on a more frequent basis than I probably should :-) FWIW, I just drove the Stradale for the first time in over a week. It is ungodly slow compared to the CGT!
Cobalt, I refuse to answer on the grounds I might incrimenate myself, but I will tell you I enjoy a considerable amount of what the CGT offers on a more frequent basis than I probably should :-) FWIW, I just drove the Stradale for the first time in over a week. It is ungodly slow compared to the CGT!
I am sure, I can only imagine but if i were in the passenger seat I would probably be egging you on. True, speed becomes relative after a certain point especially with the PCCB. Regarding the Stradale. I found them to be rather slow myself for all the hype, I guess will have to see what the F430 has to offer. My 3.6T can easily toast the Stradale, the CGT probably would incinerate, nothing left but ash.
Itc, yeah manual is strictly manual. I prefer it that way myself. Not a big fan of autos to begin with no matter how advanced. Have not had a chance to tow anything yet, so I ma not one to comment in that area.
12-20-2004, 05:40 PM
#56
Moderator !x4
Lewis, you really expected an active kickdown in manual mode ?
When towing my baby I would not like to accidently kickdown going up one of the hills on 80 ! now that would be stress.
When towing my baby I would not like to accidently kickdown going up one of the hills on 80 ! now that would be stress.
12-20-2004, 07:54 PM
#57
Super Moderator
Needs More Cowbell
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Needs More Cowbell
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Mudman,
Actually, I did; as I am still trying to understand what 'Manual' means.
If it was 'Manual', then I could start out in 4th gear if I so desired. I don't think it is allowed by the transmission. So it is 'Manual' within automatic Porsche tiptronic rules (1 out of 250 TiptronicS modes IIRC)
If you're tooling along in 5th and want to change lanes, I would have guessed/expected that if I floor the gas, then it should kickdown one gear. I was mistaken.
As I've stated before, my only expectation from the Cayenne is to start and run....everything else is just a bonus.
Actually, I did; as I am still trying to understand what 'Manual' means.
If it was 'Manual', then I could start out in 4th gear if I so desired. I don't think it is allowed by the transmission. So it is 'Manual' within automatic Porsche tiptronic rules (1 out of 250 TiptronicS modes IIRC)
If you're tooling along in 5th and want to change lanes, I would have guessed/expected that if I floor the gas, then it should kickdown one gear. I was mistaken.
As I've stated before, my only expectation from the Cayenne is to start and run....everything else is just a bonus.
12-20-2004, 08:01 PM
#59
Racer
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 367
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by cobalt
Maybe it is were I live but the nav to me is far superior than the one I had on my BMW. It has never missed a destination and corrects itself almost instantly. I live close to Manhattan so this may be why but I see nothing wrong with it. In fact it is the same system as in my mothers MB just shaped differently. At least this system only requires 2 discs, one for the east coast the other for the west. The DVD BMW system required 6 and almost never would accept an address if it wasn't located near a large city.
I never drove the ML55. I have a friend who has one and his complaint about it is very similar to your complaint about the Cayenne. I do not have the problems you are experiencing so I cannot sympathize with you. It must be very frustrating. I will say that of the ML500's and 430's I had driven I was beyond disappointed in the lack of responsiveness compared to what I feel I have in the CT.
I was not directing my comments towards anyone in particular.
I guess not having the same problems you appear to be having doesn't allow me to relate. It may be found out over time that these systems may have underlying problems that only a scattered few are subjected to. Or it may be a case of disappointment based on expectations. I don't know. Maybe in the spring we should schedule a Cayenne meet someplace were the happy and the sad can meet and swap cars to truly compare and see what the other is experiencing. It may lead to answers that talking about it may never resolve.
I never drove the ML55. I have a friend who has one and his complaint about it is very similar to your complaint about the Cayenne. I do not have the problems you are experiencing so I cannot sympathize with you. It must be very frustrating. I will say that of the ML500's and 430's I had driven I was beyond disappointed in the lack of responsiveness compared to what I feel I have in the CT.
I was not directing my comments towards anyone in particular.
I guess not having the same problems you appear to be having doesn't allow me to relate. It may be found out over time that these systems may have underlying problems that only a scattered few are subjected to. Or it may be a case of disappointment based on expectations. I don't know. Maybe in the spring we should schedule a Cayenne meet someplace were the happy and the sad can meet and swap cars to truly compare and see what the other is experiencing. It may lead to answers that talking about it may never resolve.
I'm shocked at your friend's ML55 experience. Mine mirrors another ML55 and CT owner's frustration. For an overview of this See his "Personal conclusion" at the end of this review: http://www.rennteam.com/showflat.php...0&page=0#29600.
It's the lack of a timely and responsive down shift (even after the latest updates) mostly from 3rd to 2nd that leaves me feeling like a sitting duck in inter city traffic these days. It's something that I haven't experienced in any ML or automatic for that matter.
A Cayenne feast would be nice. The complexity of the systems makes all of this difficult to 'walk in someone else's shoes'. I really think the "hesitation" perception is very much related the environment that we're driving in and the way we have to drive.
If I was driving only mostly on the Interstate, or could push it more often, I probably wouldn't have even my one complaint about the CT. A good indication of this is that I didn't lock in on the hesitation until I started driving my CT in around town on a daily basis. This was over a month after I bought.
These days it doesn't matter if I'm driving mine or a loaner. I still have it stumble the same places.
12-20-2004, 08:05 PM
#60
Racer
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 367
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by ben in lj
I just drove the Stradale for the first time in over a week. It is ungodly slow compared to the CGT!