Problem & ?Solutions? if you have bucket seats on Boxster, to access the engine
12-05-2014, 10:14 AM
#1
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Problem & ?Solutions? if you have bucket seats on Boxster, to access the engine
Any of you have bucket seats on Boxster ?
How do you solve the problem of the access to the removal of the “firewall” ..to go to the front of the engine ?
I was thinking about a pivotal hinge in the front, and, then, on the back a kind of pin with a fast clip, and this for both the exterior and the center of the two rails.
(Currently have (metric) screws, that are all “hard to access”, and you have to remove them all (8 total), to access the “firewall door”. This is all but NOT convenient at all !)
How is the fitment for the factory equipped cars (i.e.: Boxster with bucket seats) ?
How do you solve the problem of the access to the removal of the “firewall” ..to go to the front of the engine ?
I was thinking about a pivotal hinge in the front, and, then, on the back a kind of pin with a fast clip, and this for both the exterior and the center of the two rails.
(Currently have (metric) screws, that are all “hard to access”, and you have to remove them all (8 total), to access the “firewall door”. This is all but NOT convenient at all !)
How is the fitment for the factory equipped cars (i.e.: Boxster with bucket seats) ?
12-05-2014, 11:27 AM
#2
Race Director
Any of you have bucket seats on Boxster ?
How do you solve the problem of the access to the removal of the “firewall” ..to go to the front of the engine ?
I was thinking about a pivotal hinge in the front, and, then, on the back a kind of pin with a fast clip, and this for both the exterior and the center of the two rails.
(Currently have (metric) screws, that are all “hard to access”, and you have to remove them all (8 total), to access the “firewall door”. This is all but NOT convenient at all !)
How is the fitment for the factory equipped cars (i.e.: Boxster with bucket seats) ?
How do you solve the problem of the access to the removal of the “firewall” ..to go to the front of the engine ?
I was thinking about a pivotal hinge in the front, and, then, on the back a kind of pin with a fast clip, and this for both the exterior and the center of the two rails.
(Currently have (metric) screws, that are all “hard to access”, and you have to remove them all (8 total), to access the “firewall door”. This is all but NOT convenient at all !)
How is the fitment for the factory equipped cars (i.e.: Boxster with bucket seats) ?
With the panel removed there's not much to see/do. In nearly 13 years I've only had the panel out twice. Once to replace the belt and once to check for a suspected bad water pump.
12-05-2014, 01:14 PM
#3
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Mine came standard with a bench seat.
You just tilt the seatbacks forward and can get in there. Maybe slide them up too. No need for extra engineering!
You just tilt the seatbacks forward and can get in there. Maybe slide them up too. No need for extra engineering!
12-05-2014, 01:58 PM
#4
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
well, I realized, ..that Im really not good with my explanations.
please accept my excuses for that. Let me try to be more accurate:
Yes, the OEM seats, do tilt, and then you can access the "engine front access".
But, when you put "real bucket seats", these ..do not tilt at all.
i.e., like :
so, if access to the front of the engine is needed, then, you have no other choice to ..remove the two seats, which in not a very pleasant exercice.
Why going there ?
Well, if you have real bucket seats, it is because you may spend time on exercices like track driving.
And if you do so, you would like to change your underpulley, against a smaller one, to not burn you your power steering pump, so it means also a smaller serpentine belt.
You may want also a lower temp thermostat, to try to keep your engine temp not too high.
..and etc..
So access down there should be kept on mind.
my question was, how to manage an "ok" access if you have for example a car that have the OEM option called (I think ?) "Sport Bucket Seat", i.e. seats that do NOT tilt ?
please accept my excuses for that. Let me try to be more accurate:
Yes, the OEM seats, do tilt, and then you can access the "engine front access".
But, when you put "real bucket seats", these ..do not tilt at all.
i.e., like :
so, if access to the front of the engine is needed, then, you have no other choice to ..remove the two seats, which in not a very pleasant exercice.
Why going there ?
Well, if you have real bucket seats, it is because you may spend time on exercices like track driving.
And if you do so, you would like to change your underpulley, against a smaller one, to not burn you your power steering pump, so it means also a smaller serpentine belt.
You may want also a lower temp thermostat, to try to keep your engine temp not too high.
..and etc..
So access down there should be kept on mind.
my question was, how to manage an "ok" access if you have for example a car that have the OEM option called (I think ?) "Sport Bucket Seat", i.e. seats that do NOT tilt ?
Last edited by GVA-SFO; 12-05-2014 at 06:20 PM.
12-05-2014, 02:31 PM
#5
Rennlist Member
Put the top down, if you have that option, & attack from above!
12-05-2014, 08:41 PM
#6
Race Director
Ok I take the seats don't even move forward?
Well, if that is the case then I guess you have to take the seats out.
Can't let your comments slide: I'm not a fan of an underdrive pulley. It slows the water pump down and as I've covered before by detailing an experiment you can do with a pan of water on the stove why this is bad. And a lower temp T-stat just means the engine takes longer to warm up.
If you want a cooler running power steering pump install a power steering fluid cooler.
If you want a cooler running engine install a 3rd (center) radiator. If you have a 3rd radiator consider installing thicker (aftermarket I guess) radiators.
If you need ready access to the front of the engine that you can not get from above or from below then face the fact you are going to have to remove the seats then to get access to the front of the engine from inside the cabin.
Not sure how often you will need this access. Even if you go ahead with the smaller pulley and lower temp T-stat this is a one time job.
Well, if that is the case then I guess you have to take the seats out.
Can't let your comments slide: I'm not a fan of an underdrive pulley. It slows the water pump down and as I've covered before by detailing an experiment you can do with a pan of water on the stove why this is bad. And a lower temp T-stat just means the engine takes longer to warm up.
If you want a cooler running power steering pump install a power steering fluid cooler.
If you want a cooler running engine install a 3rd (center) radiator. If you have a 3rd radiator consider installing thicker (aftermarket I guess) radiators.
If you need ready access to the front of the engine that you can not get from above or from below then face the fact you are going to have to remove the seats then to get access to the front of the engine from inside the cabin.
Not sure how often you will need this access. Even if you go ahead with the smaller pulley and lower temp T-stat this is a one time job.
12-06-2014, 05:50 AM
#7
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Interesting comment about the smaller underdrive pulley.
It is still seating in my "to be done shelve", and I was hesitating to put the b. seats before this install, (together with a new shorter belt), but, finally, got the seats installed first, which was kind of wrong order, except "easier first" !.
I heard that a smaller under drive pulley is a kind of must (???) if you do not want to blow your power steering pump on track !
Is the problem of temp in the fluid ? ..or, over pressure by driving the pump too high in rpm ?
About the low temp thermostat, I do not think it makes the engine longer to reach the running temp, as till the temp is reached, both would be closed, but, keep the working temp a bit lower. In my opinion, manufacturers tend to run engines temp higher, to help pollution control, but, this is against mecanical constraints, so, on this one, Im still fully convinced that this is a very good thing to do.
About that one, I also get that a smaller underdrive pulley do reduce water flow by running the water pump at lower speed, ..may be that's why in my latests maintenance work, I changed the water pump to get a new one, as preventive maintenance, I put a lower temp thermostat, but did not installed the smaller underdrive pulley, even if some says, that this mod also do increase hp, by reducing the use of power to run these accessories at lower speed !!
Well, but in this, ..I did not changed (yet) the S. belt, thinking that I will install the shorter one ..together with the smaller pulley !
Now, I hesitate, thinking about the power steering "problem". ..But, a change of the S belt would anyway be a must, at such mileage !
Or, the reason of my question to keep the door open, with the seats install !
By the way, fyi, such bucket seats are a real huge improvement on track driving. You stay in the good seating position without any effort.
It is still seating in my "to be done shelve", and I was hesitating to put the b. seats before this install, (together with a new shorter belt), but, finally, got the seats installed first, which was kind of wrong order, except "easier first" !.
I heard that a smaller under drive pulley is a kind of must (???) if you do not want to blow your power steering pump on track !
Is the problem of temp in the fluid ? ..or, over pressure by driving the pump too high in rpm ?
About the low temp thermostat, I do not think it makes the engine longer to reach the running temp, as till the temp is reached, both would be closed, but, keep the working temp a bit lower. In my opinion, manufacturers tend to run engines temp higher, to help pollution control, but, this is against mecanical constraints, so, on this one, Im still fully convinced that this is a very good thing to do.
About that one, I also get that a smaller underdrive pulley do reduce water flow by running the water pump at lower speed, ..may be that's why in my latests maintenance work, I changed the water pump to get a new one, as preventive maintenance, I put a lower temp thermostat, but did not installed the smaller underdrive pulley, even if some says, that this mod also do increase hp, by reducing the use of power to run these accessories at lower speed !!
Well, but in this, ..I did not changed (yet) the S. belt, thinking that I will install the shorter one ..together with the smaller pulley !
Now, I hesitate, thinking about the power steering "problem". ..But, a change of the S belt would anyway be a must, at such mileage !
Or, the reason of my question to keep the door open, with the seats install !
By the way, fyi, such bucket seats are a real huge improvement on track driving. You stay in the good seating position without any effort.
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12-06-2014, 01:34 PM
#8
Race Director
There is a pressure regulator valve that limits fluid pressure in the power steering hydraulic system.
The possible issue with the power steering is the fluid temp gets too high and remains high for too long.
IIRC in some model years the pump has some kind of plastic fitting/plug/seal that if the pump gets too hot this can fail due to the elevated heat. Newer model pumps may have done away with this weakness. If the plastic piece fails the fluid can leak and a pump low in fluid doesn't last long.
This is why a cooler should be used. I believe in the newer cars now Porsche runs the power steering lines though the oil cooler to help cool the power steering fluid.
I do *not* see how slowing the power steering pump speed at the cost of slowing the water pump speed is the right thing to do. It smacks of doing something like drilling holes in the hull of a ship to make the ship lighter to prevent it from sinking.
Besides if you think the only thing standing between you and a podium finish is the tiny bit of horsepower gain an underdrive pulley is going to get you you are in for a disappointment.
The T-stat is there to control warm up time. Once the engine has reached its operating temperature the T-stat is fully open and plays no role in the engine's upper temperature. This is a factor of engine load and cooling.
Run the car hard on even a mild day and the coolant temperature can climb -- based on my observation -- to 226F. It doesn't get any higher though which tells me the car's cooling system determines the upper limit.
A lower temp T-stat just means the engine operates at a lower temperature longer than it would otherwise. Not good.
Car makers prefer to run their engines a bit warm, well what seems to be warm to a human. This helps fuel economy -- there is less drag from the warm and thinner oil -- which helps emissions -- less fuel burned means less emissions -- but it also reduces engine wear. Lab tests have found engine wear goes up as engine temperature goes down. For example in a 60 hour engine test engine wear at 210F was 0.0003". At 180F 0.0005". The wear amount continues to go up as the engine temperature drops further.
For someone to come along and state with no testing, no science, that an engine running at XXXF is running too hot is just well, at best nonsense.
But to act upon this and in an attempt to lower the car's operating temperature and install a lower temp T-stat which plays no role in the cars upper operating temperature is just crazy.
If you want to lower the max. temperature the engine coolant reaches install more cooling. This is what Porsche does to add cooling to cars that have a higher heat load (like the Turbo and cars equipped with a Tip). Don't you think if just a lower T-stat was sufficient Porsche would do this rather than add the weight/complexity to the vehicle a 3rd radiator adds?
The factory T-stat will still have the engine getting up to temperature in a manner that the engine designers believe is best.
But the increased cooling capacity will help limit how hot the engine gets when pushed hard.
The possible issue with the power steering is the fluid temp gets too high and remains high for too long.
IIRC in some model years the pump has some kind of plastic fitting/plug/seal that if the pump gets too hot this can fail due to the elevated heat. Newer model pumps may have done away with this weakness. If the plastic piece fails the fluid can leak and a pump low in fluid doesn't last long.
This is why a cooler should be used. I believe in the newer cars now Porsche runs the power steering lines though the oil cooler to help cool the power steering fluid.
I do *not* see how slowing the power steering pump speed at the cost of slowing the water pump speed is the right thing to do. It smacks of doing something like drilling holes in the hull of a ship to make the ship lighter to prevent it from sinking.
Besides if you think the only thing standing between you and a podium finish is the tiny bit of horsepower gain an underdrive pulley is going to get you you are in for a disappointment.
The T-stat is there to control warm up time. Once the engine has reached its operating temperature the T-stat is fully open and plays no role in the engine's upper temperature. This is a factor of engine load and cooling.
Run the car hard on even a mild day and the coolant temperature can climb -- based on my observation -- to 226F. It doesn't get any higher though which tells me the car's cooling system determines the upper limit.
A lower temp T-stat just means the engine operates at a lower temperature longer than it would otherwise. Not good.
Car makers prefer to run their engines a bit warm, well what seems to be warm to a human. This helps fuel economy -- there is less drag from the warm and thinner oil -- which helps emissions -- less fuel burned means less emissions -- but it also reduces engine wear. Lab tests have found engine wear goes up as engine temperature goes down. For example in a 60 hour engine test engine wear at 210F was 0.0003". At 180F 0.0005". The wear amount continues to go up as the engine temperature drops further.
For someone to come along and state with no testing, no science, that an engine running at XXXF is running too hot is just well, at best nonsense.
But to act upon this and in an attempt to lower the car's operating temperature and install a lower temp T-stat which plays no role in the cars upper operating temperature is just crazy.
If you want to lower the max. temperature the engine coolant reaches install more cooling. This is what Porsche does to add cooling to cars that have a higher heat load (like the Turbo and cars equipped with a Tip). Don't you think if just a lower T-stat was sufficient Porsche would do this rather than add the weight/complexity to the vehicle a 3rd radiator adds?
The factory T-stat will still have the engine getting up to temperature in a manner that the engine designers believe is best.
But the increased cooling capacity will help limit how hot the engine gets when pushed hard.
12-11-2014, 04:59 PM
#9
Rennlist Member
I understand your issue with the fixed back seats, but are you suggesting somehow hinging your seat sliders up front and pinning them in the back, so the seat would tilt forward? If so, that's a seriously bad idea. You will then be essentially trusting your life to a hardware store pot metal hinge and pin, both probably made in China. OEMs and reputable seat manufacturers spend a LOT of money on the engineering and testing of seats and seat attachments to insure they will hold a heavy adult in place under the extreme and rapid g-loading that occurs in an accident. If you track your car, that should be very near and dear to your heart.
Put differently, it's only 4 screws. Is that worth risking your life?
Put differently, it's only 4 screws. Is that worth risking your life?
12-12-2014, 01:22 PM
#10
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Dear Onewhippedpuppy,
I would like to thank you for your post.
You are simply RIGHT, and just nail the point exactly as it must be.
A "hinge and pin" solution could looks good to do maintenance, but in case of "problem", could create dramatic effects, removing all the safety that the harness and solid seats fixation provide.
Now, I realize that my seats (and lower parts oh the harness) must remain fixed to the body, with the original 4 screws per seat scheme.
I think the topic can be closed.
Thank you again, for your very clever, short and very efficient post..
I would like to thank you for your post.
You are simply RIGHT, and just nail the point exactly as it must be.
A "hinge and pin" solution could looks good to do maintenance, but in case of "problem", could create dramatic effects, removing all the safety that the harness and solid seats fixation provide.
Now, I realize that my seats (and lower parts oh the harness) must remain fixed to the body, with the original 4 screws per seat scheme.
I think the topic can be closed.
Thank you again, for your very clever, short and very efficient post..