linderpat

My 03 S has developed a noisy clicking/ tick tick tick sound that my mechanic describes as noisy lifters. I have done a fair amount of research on the topic, and I do agree with the diagnosis.

There are a couple if differences from the norm however. First, it happens more so after the car is warm, not at cold start-up. I don't detect any noise at cold start up. Also, the sound goes away when revving the engine, which is what you'd expect as the oil pressure is increased and the oil is forced into the lifters.

Before going down the path of an expensive fix, I'd like some thoughts on the above. Also, one thing that is not clear from the research here or on the other boards is what are the ramifications of doing nothing? At least for awhile. Can there be catastrophic engine failure or just general power loss due to the valves not engaging all the way (as a result of the stuck lifters)?

Macster

Assuming the diagnosis of noisy lifters is correct, the danger of doing nothing is the incorrectly functioning lifter or lifters will cause the cam lobes to wear and ruin the cam or cams.

The clearance between the lifter bucket face and cam lobe is increased so the cam lobe doesn't ease the bucket down but smacks it. Overtime this will cause wear at the cam lobe.

What if any risk of engine failure or more serious engine trouble there is from letting this go I can't say.

Performance will be down of that I'm pretty sure, but to what extent I do not know. I had a Honda motorcycle develop a ticking valve that turned out to be on tear down a flattened cam lobe (came from not changing the oil often enough…) and the engine was a bit down on power but it was only noticeable once I got the engine fixed and the motorcycle back on the road.

But you indicate that more than one valve is affected. Thus the performance could be down considerably though you might not realize it as it has come about gradually.

Have to ask: What oil are you running? Is it reasonably fresh?

My advice would be to bite the bullet and have the noisy lifters addressed. This will probably involve replacing all lifters on the noisy bank. If both banks have noisy lifters, you could be looking at 24 lifters plus labor. If the cam lobes are damaged then there's the cost of the affected cams.

Now it is possible to replace just the noisy lifters if these can be clearly identified. The replace all is the factory guideline for when a car comes in with noisy lifters under warranty. The belief is the noise is due to a bad lifter thus the entire "batch" of lifters is suspect and it is better to replace all than do them one or two at a time over multiple bring backs.

How many to replace is between you and your trusted tech.

Not pleasant but on the other hand the car is otherwise a good car and as it is it is not worth hardly anything as a trade in or in a private sale. I spent around $3K on my 02 Boxster to have a failed VarioCam solenoid/actuator replaced because even at $3K it was cheaper than getting rid of the car and buying something else.

Schnell Gelb

Macaster is right to caution : "assuming the noisy lifter diagnosis is correct"
My engine ('02 Bxstr S,90k miles) made an occasional 'lifter' ticking noise unpredictably. Quite suddenly the tick became a knock and so now I am starting the engine rebuild process. I almost began just addressing the lifter issue - which would(probably) have been a waste of time and money because clearly a more serious issue was developing.
So make very sure it is just lifter(s)
In theory the lifters can be cleaned out and re-used if not worn. But that is the easy part. Getting to them is another story.

linderpat

that is interesting. What was your issue? Jake Raby (Flat6 tech) on another forum said a failing piston sounds very much the same. What is your failure? I will get another opinion for sure.

Schnell Gelb

Ah Ha- there is both the mystery and the grief!
To find out what the fundamental cause is, you get to dismantle the entire engine on a forensic analysis of every bearing ,gear,surface &seal .And then you do things like measure bores for taper/ovality in the thrust direction. After all this amateurish(me) effort you address what little you understood of the measurements & observations, reassemble and re-fit the engine and transmission.You hope any oversights and mistakes will be self cancelling. Months and thousands of dollars later you discover your folly or accidental genius when you turn the ignition key .It will be an epic moment in my mechanical ,financial and possibly marital life :-). Hopefully the mystery will be solved without grief.

Flat6 Innovations

If this vehicle was operated at all during the cold winter we most previously endured you must suspect cylinders are the issue rather than lifters. I have two Pennsylvania cars here now, both with failed cylinders and both were driven in the zero temperatures.

Even if the noise is lifters, you still must address the issue, else the additional valve lash will crease lifter carrier wear as well as cam lobe wear. There is no good mechanical noise from any engine.

linderpat

Jake, I will pursue this with my local techs, but why would cold temps affect the cylinders, and if it affected Boxster engines, why would it not affect any other other Porsche engine ir any car engine for that matter? What makes the boxster engine susceptible to this?

Flat6 Innovations

It does effect all the other modern engines with exception of the turbo and GT3.. Do some searches and a few cases will pop up.. Those are just a few of the failures that are happening.

It even effects the Cayenne V8.

The operating clearances between the cylinders and pistons are improper at temperatures in the single digits. The issue occurs at start up and as the piston soaks up heat and expands faster than the cylinder this wear occurs.

I am working on a very informative print article about this now.

Schnell Gelb

There is a parallel discussion to this specific issue on another Forum right now. It is interesting to read the very different level of response. According to the 'other guy' it is just a lifter problem .Time will tell. He'll either be in Flat 6 Hell or Heaven IYKWIM :-)

Flat6 Innovations

Assume the worst. Hope for the best. Quantify it all.

DennisAN

This is a strange diagnosis (cold winter). Porsche seems to bend over backwards to let their cars run in arctic conditions, e.g. using Pentosin CHF 11S in the power steering (specified down to -40* C). My owner's manual merely says use 5W-30 for "temperatures of mostly below 32*F/0*C" .

When you say "failed cylinders" do you mean D-chunk or some other failure mode?

Flat6 Innovations

The owner's manual was written with projections for what was supposed to happen… Years later, time in service requires many amendments to be considered, but they are not.

My information comes from direct experience with seeing the cars, seeing the issues and restoring function to them. I see cars from all over N America, not just local cars, and the trend data is easy to gather.

The OP may have a bad lifter.. BUT its important that an investigation into other possible issues be carried out, else the "bad lifter" is replaced and several thousand dollars later the noise is still there.

This link illustrates the failure mode pretty well. This engine still ran fine, just sounded like it had a bad lifter. One dealer and two independent shops later it landed here.
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...4914693&type=3

Schnell Gelb

I used to work for a European car company and we did our winter testing in Timmins Ont.(very cold).IMHO the testing was pointless because the cars were run 24/7 usually.It was totally different to normal use. Of course the cars were in perfect condition and perfectly maintained and had every imaginable sensor and monitor on them. Not surprisingly the conclusion was that the cars were perfect in such conditions ! The real world- not so much.Eventually we'd get all the bugs worked out through the pain of deserting customers and warranty claims.Then the management would change to a new model/new engine .............rinse & repeat.

Flat6 Innovations

Cold starts and the associated thermal shock that accompany them are a problem. This is especially true when pistons soak up the temperature so much faster than the bores and thus expand faster. This reduces the running clearance (inadequate) that was built in at the factory even more and can easily create cylinders and pistons that run with zero running clearance for a brief period of time.

This is why wear starts at the skirt area of the cylinder, and in fact the first failure that occurs is a allure of the piston skirt that then increases friction.

I am currently working on a very detailed article about this as we work with these issues that are not just occurring with Porsche engines, but also BMW and Mercedes. I have an E55 AMG engine that I am developing now and those are dropping like flies, all because of the manufacturers using the same materials and mindsets with most European engines.