cobra2top

First off, what a GREAT site! I have been over here for a few months and have been in search of a 87-89 911 for a weekend toy with little luck. This week a good friend of mine who is a dealer took a trade on a 97 968, silver with the red leather interior, 5 spd, an the kicker 28K miles. The original owner who traded the car in (Lexus dealer) was 67 years old and only drove it on nice days. It shows as new. He had the 3M tape added to the front and there is zero scratches/dents. Even the interior is a time capsle, everything is perfect. All serivce from day one was at a Porsche Dealer with all records presented.

After driving the thing, I was hooked! What a great driver. To be honest, I really did not give the Boxster much thought as I wanted the rear seats of the 911 for those rare times I take the family out for a little cruise. The cost of the 97 is actually less then the 87 911's that I have been looking at (mostly Targas) with over 100K miles and 10 years older. It's enough to make me change my purchase decision.

So to my questions, after searching and searching here the last few days, I keep reading not to buy a Boxster with low miles due to possible engine failures. I understand this engine is not sleaved but the low miles which I thought would be great now has me concerned. Also, and I do not know if this helps, the car has a build date of 12/96 from Germany. Early production number?? When did they start to build the 97's?

I also understand that the 97's suspension is not designed for larger rims. True? I really want to dump the 17" and add a set of 18" or possibly 19" rims. Is this advisable on a 97?

Again, great info on this site. I look forward to getting more involved if I find the Boxster in the garage soon!

Ken
no Porshe for now!

Macster

First search out Mike Focke's web pages and find the link to how to shop/buy a user Boxster.

The car sounds like a very early unit. At first all were built in Germany and later production moved to Finland when demand outpaced the German factory's output.

17" ok. 18"s may be iffy. And 19"s a definite no no. Later MYs were beefed up in the suspension area to handle the stresses larger wheels place on these areas.

Mike's site covers this I bet.

Actually a very early example may not have a sleeved engine, but there is no way of knowing.

Shortly after production started, though, demand was high and there was a problem with the block casting machinery and blocks were coming out with porosity. Instead of scraping the porous blocks Porsche sleeved these blocks or the engine block casting factory sleeved them with Porsche's knowledge and this was assumed a permanent fix.

Trouble is it wasn't a permanent fix. Almost invariably one sleeve would come loose and total engine destruction would result. Many of these of course occured while car/engine under warranty and were fixed by replacing the engine with a "new" or "remanufactured" 2.5l engine, but even low mileage examples out of warranty and owned by their 1st, 2nd or later owner were not covered.

There is really no way to know if the engine is sleeved and while an analysis of the engine oil may turn up some signs of coolant contamination absence of this contamination is not proof the engine won't soon suffer from a slipped sleeve.

The time frame from a perfectly healthy engine to a busted one is sometimes very short. There is not much of a window to spot a problem. And even if you own the car and spot this before the engine goes boom you are faced with the cost of replacing the engine.

The car might be worth owning regardless, provided one can develop a sense of the risk involved and attach a value to the car that reflects this and of course finds a way to get the seller to agree to the lower valuation.

Many owners subscribed to the sales/marketing BS about investing in a Porsche and are looking to recoup their purchase price when the sell the car used. Low mileage well maintained cars of course come in for this consideration but the possible engine problems tend to counter any premiium a low mileage even well maintained example would otherwise convey.

Besides, even with no risk for any engine troubles, you would do well to avoid paying too much if any premium for a low mileage early example. If you drive the car the low mileage premium evaporates very quickly.

And at the price you have a wide selection of early cars to choose from. 2.5l some with "new" engines -- replaced under warranty when the orignal engine slipped a sleeve -- or even early examples of the 2.7l Boxster which appeared in 2000 or even a 3.2S which also appeared in 2000.

Sincerely,

Macster.

cobra2top

Macster, great information, thanks for the detail on this. The engine issue is the only thing that gives me serious pause with this purchase. The car runs like a champ and really looks brand new. I actually have it in my garage tonight to look it over and decide what I want to do. Helps that he is a good friend and allows me to keep it overnight. I will search Mike's site now to see if there is anything on there about timing of when the porosity engines started. My build date is 12/97, wonder if the sales of the 97 were peaking and the bad engines were used or is this date still when they were ramping up production and not rushing engine builds?

When I was 911 searching, I read that the 99 model also had engine issues. Is this the same issue as the Boxster? Any other models use the 2.5 ltr?

If you were buying, the price I am going to pay for the 28K miler is the same as the 80K plus milers on the web. Should I buy a 28K miler or would I have better luck with a 80K miler with the thought that if the engine was going to blow, it would have already done so?

Does anyone know how many actually blown? How many have a ton of miles on the original engine?

Macster

Well, to state the obvious it ought to run like a champ since it has so few miles on it. Trouble is the engine runs great right up until it doesn't. But will it reach this state? No one can say.

My suspicion and it is only that, is the very early cars might have missed the sleeve "fix" cause Porsche had the luxury of scraping those engines that failed to pass inspection. Only when the demand climbed did Porsche stoop to band-aiding engines that most would say -- with some benefit of hindsight -- it should have scraped.

Trouble is Porsche was in pretty dire straits then and the sales of the Boxster were providing alot of what was keeping Porsche going.

The 911 3.4L engine is the "same" engine, basically. But it came later and of course by this time the casting machine problem was fixed.

The 3.4l engine can fall prey to a few of its own issues. The one that stands out based on my research is the 3.4l engine can develop a cracked cylinder -- up near the top - the crack which will grow and get worse and finally cause a piece of cylinder wall to fall loose and into the cylinder. Catastrophic engine failure is only a few RPMs away after this happens. Now some experts tell me that all the water cooled engines are at risk from this failure.

No other Porsche model uses the 2.5l engine as it existed in the 2.5l early Boxsters.

Supposedly, all the cars up to when the M96 was revised use the same basic engine with bore and stroke and head and camshaft variations that make each a suitable engine for the model of car it is being used in. There are probably internal changes and external ones as well, that if one had access to a sample of each engine block, that distinquish each engine from others and from earlier examples.

The 2.5l engine apears to be rather a robust engine provided it is not sleeved. I know of owners who have put over 100K miles on one with no issues.

I myself have put over 226K miles on my 02 Boxster's 2.7l engine with no problems other than a couple of AOSs, a MAF, an oil filler cap, a coolant cap, some O2 sensors and a water pump.

There is a line of thought that runs buy a car with some miles so that any inherent problems that would have appeared have had a chance to appear.

Not sure what I would do. Well, check that. I know what I would do, though I never deal with friends, or family, and that is try to get the 28K mile car for a price as close to an 80K mile car as I could possibly get and if close enough run the risk of the 2.5l engine having a sleeve problem.

Or find a 2.5l car that has had its engine replaced and has reasonable miels on the "new" engine, though ideally enough miles to have some confidence the replacement engine doesn't have any inherent problems.

How many miles is enough miles? Well, one thing to note is Porsche offers a 50K mile warranty on new cars/engines, so an engine that has covered 50K miles and has been properly maintained, serviced, I think represents reasonable risk. The engine and car of course must pass a strict check out and PPI though.

Sincerely,

Macster.

cobra2top

Macster, again great information! You really give me the chance to really think this one through. The good news is that I am going to pick this one up for less then what others are "asking" for a 80K miler on Cars.com. In the end I am getting a pretty good deal as the interior/exterior is new. Never a fan of Red interiors but I actually like the look of the Boxster Red Interior against the silver. Reminds me of the old 356's.

I think I am going to take a chance. Absolute worst case scenario is that the engine does blow. That would be AWFUL but I guess I could always source a 2.7 ltr S engine or I read that some drop a 3.4 ltr.

The interesting thing that is making this purchase difficult besides the engine issue is that I guess I am old school and would like to actually see the engine before buying! For all I know the heads could be seeping (even thought the garage floor is dry this morning). Even though the car is at Lexus, should I still take the car to a Porsche dealer for a PPI or can anyone perform it. Does Porsche run it though a more stringent process?

Also very interesting thoughts on the whole 986 saving Porsche. Great point on pushing the engines through just to get them to market knowing they could be bad. I guess the thought at the time is that they would just fix anything bad during the warranty period just to get the cars out. Interesting decision on their part, need the $$ now vs keeping brand loyalty. I guess the decision in the end did not kill the brand as here I am wanting the P-car experience!

Again Thanks!

Macster

You can view the engine, for what its worth. There's a way to expose the engine by putting the top into engine service position. The steps are in the owners manual.

Trouble is from the top you won't see much. Unless the engine's gushing oil or coolant or has a rat's nest of trash on top of the intake manifold likely all you will see is some dusty plastic intake runners.

The best way to view these engines is from underneath. Get the car safely in the air and thoroughly inspect it for any signs of oil leakage. Head gaskets, camshaft covers, front and especially the rear main seal. Check the area around and under the AOS. Just look for any oil or fluid leaks anywhere. If there are any you'll see them. Take pics and post and you'll get replies as to what the leaks are, mean, and what the possible cost of addressing them are. A bit of a leak if not signaling a serious problem can be estimated as to what it would cost to put right and the cost factored into your offer for the car.

Check water pump for any signs of coolant leakage. Look for signs of whiteish deposits which is what dried coolant looks like.

Regardless, have the car subject to a thorough prepurchase inspection (PPI) by a shop (at a local dealership -- provided it had no fiduciary interest in the car's sale -- would be my preference) and a qualified tech that knows these cars inside and out.

Sincerely,

Macster.

Mike Murphy

That's a great way to hedge your bet.

So do I.

Good for you. I usually get a PPI, but I didn't on the most recent Boxster I picked up last month. Instead, I looked the car over myself from all angles, viewed the engine from the top and bottom, etc.

941MXVET

Good luck with your purchase. We own a '98 2.5l Boxster. My feeling is that the chance of engine failure has been baked into the current pricing. With that said, a current buyer is purchasing a GREAT car for the price.

Case in point, we were undecided weather to go with the Boxster or to go with a Lotus Elise (supercharged) My wife (an accountant) figure that the price of the 2.5l Boxster + a Raby re-built engine was still less then a used supercharged Elise. If the engine developes no issues you come out way ahead, if it dose your still ahead of our second pick for an AX'er\roadster\roadtriper.

Mike Murphy

I think you're onto something and that it could be one of the reasons why most Porsches depreciate rather quickly. The 996s are similar.

aron in toronto

How did the purchase go? Did you end up buying?

I have a relatively low mileage '97 w/ ~32K mi so I'm always interested in the advice given by members here to potential buyers. In the past 7 years since getting mine I’ve added around 14k mi.

As Macster mentioned higher mileage cars have benefited from a lengthy "shakedown" period and hopefully any needed repairs occurred under warranty. But of course the additional mileage also ads wear to most components of the car unless the previous owner kept up with all the car's maintenance needs. For me the choice was to go for a lower mileage example with less wear and tear and hope the mechanical condition would not go south in the future at a faster rate that a higher mileage example. Ironically the two only warranty repairs (ignition switch, and airbag light/seatbelt receptacle) failed again out of warranty under my ownership and have been the only issues with the car with the exception of a leaky RMS. The RMS leak at this point is more of a nuisance than a problem, but I know down the it road will need attention.

Addressing some of the concerns you mentioned earlier, it is my understanding the re-sleeved motors occurred during the '98-‘99 model runs. I've heard about the porosity issues with the early 2.5l motors, but have never heard of anyone with firsthand experience. Regarding 18” wheels on ‘97s, I’ve been running 18” Carrera lightweights for the past 3 years with no “noticeable” issues, but there could be some unknown problems lurking. There are lots of ‘97s out there with 18” and even some 19”s wheels and again I haven’t heard of any first hand experiences of failures. Unless you’re generating track like forces 18” wheels should be OK.

Hope you decided to go through with the sale and are out enjoying your new purchase.

LTCB

Last year I test drove a 2000 Boxster with only 17k -- and that is EXACTLY what it had.

I asked to see the engine (knowing nothing about it), and the owner had no idea how to raise the engine access cover. We pulled out the manual, went through the steps, and got it open.

Imagine his distress and embarrassment when we found a sizeable mouse nest build among the headers.....

He was an old guy, and obviously didn't drive it much.

Ray S

Macster,

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe that any '97's were sleeved.

To the best of my knowledge the only model years that had sleeved motors were '98 & '99.

Macster

I have not seen -- and no one else has either cause Porsche never released the info: The production serial numbers of which cars received engines which could have been sleeved.

You might be right: The very early cars might have escaped this treatment cause -- one theory -- initially demand was low enough the casting foundry and Porsche could throw away the porous blocks but as demand grew the pressure was on to use even marginal blocks and sleeving was seen as the solution.

Since I have not been in the market for an early used Boxster I never paid attention to the dates of manufacture for those earlier cars that had a sleeve problem. Perhaps a professional engine builder or indy shop would know from its exposure to all model years if the earlier examples were free of sleeved engines.

I can next time I visit my local dealer see if the senior tech might be able to shed some light.

Sincerely,

Macster.

cobra2top

Well, to bring everyone up to speed, the purchase has not been completed.....yet. The story is that I have a lightly modded 92 Special Edition Mustang convertible 5.0 5 spd. that the wife said I have to launch if I buy the Porsche. The dealer friend and I negotiated a great deal, he was going to keep my Mustang for his weekend toy and I would get time to see it/drive it when I needed a V8 fix. Well, his wife shut that idea down and changed the decision process for me. I tried every angle to keep the Mustang for now and in the Spring sell either the Porsche or Mustang, essentailly keep the one I like better and make a few more dollars selling a vert over in the Spring. Well, the my wife shot that idea down! (what is up with these women!?!?). She did not want to have 2 toys in the garage so after some lenghty discussions, the Mustang must go if the Porsche is added. The issue is that the Porsche my friend has Iis the one I want. I can not expect him to hold on to it while I try and sell the Mustang. It is so clean that it is only a matter of time before it is sold. With the holiday's I parked the idea and thought about buying a "S" with a few more miles in the Spring.

Tonight my Dealer friend called and said that a good friend would like to see the Mustang. He is looking for a weekend toy and a Mustang fanatic. He saw my car tonight and loved it. We need to still negotiate the price but the issue I have is that my 5 year old son likes the Mustang!!!! I talked to him tonight about the Porsche and he asked where was the back seat. He realized tonight that he will not "fit" in the Boxster. Now it is not like he is in the Mustang alot. Maybe a handful of times over the course of a driving season, but that look on his face gave me pause.

Now the decision is to launch the Mustang for the Porsche or not. Now the wife really likes the Porsche and we had already talked about taking it on "date nights" when I thought the deal was sealed. She is not a huge fan of the Mustang as it has a aftermarket exhaust with a deep rumble. I always liked it but it is starting to feel a little boy racer as of late (I guess I am getting old!). Now my son is a big fan of the Mustang.......so make the wife happy or the son. The more I think of it Dad wants the Porsche so mentally the decision is made, just need to bring the son along!!

Long way to get here, but the latest is that tomorrow I am going to try and finalize the deal with the Mustang and buy the Porsche. It is just too good of a deal and just a great driver. My friend gave me the keys over the weekend and I put a good 100 miles on the car driving it everywhere and it was so much fun, more fun then my Mustang. Very tight and that flat 6 has such a nice sound!!

Well, I will keep you posted and again, thanks for all of the help and advice!

Benzito

To further clarify (or muddle) things ... and I'll try to find the original link ... I understood that the sleeve issue began with late 1998 models and into most, if not all of 1999 models (cars built from mid-year 1998 through most or all of 1999). So 1997s ought not to suffer, early build 1998s, and then from 2000 onwards. Not suggesting these other cars may not have other gremlins!