Alan Herod

My perceptions are based solely on track experience. Physics is very definitely involved, and is why mid-engine is a superior design for a sports car. Consider that your goal is to design a vehicle that is agile, nimble, and responsive. Of course the Boxster is the better design for going fast. That does not make it the best car for someone with no experience to drive at the limit, it makes the limit higher. I consider that the 911 is much easier to drive at the limit and the Boxster is less forgiving because the limit is a finer line and departure is more sudden and because of the mid-engine design the spin characteristics are distinctly different. Perhaps I am getting more aggressive Boxster students then 911 students, but I don't think that is the case. Last year the tally was 5 to 1 (Boxster to 911 departures). I believe this is because the 'ragged edge' is thinner in the Boxster.

Tour18

I drive a Z06 and a Boxster S for daily use and can confirm that everyone in this thread is right on the money.

The Z06 is, well, a Corvette in the naval sense. Definately outgunned, the Boxster is like a PT Boat. You wouldn't want to mess with either one. And that Corvette better watch out because that Boxster might just torpedo its ***... hehehe...

I've said it before, the Boxster is a jewel.

brh986

That's exactly what the mid engine design accomplishes. More than just producing a 50/50 weight distribution (which is also important) it puts most of the mass at the center of the car thus making it easier to change direction - i.e. more agile, nimble. and responsive. Physics dictates this as fact. You will notice that (with the exception of the GT2) every "supercar" in the world has a mid engine design. It's not by accident, or because it looks cool or exotic.

Quote:

That does not make it the best car for someone with no experience to drive at the limit, it makes the limit higher. I consider that the 911 is much easier to drive at the limit and the Boxster is less forgiving because the limit is a finer line and departure is more sudden and because of the mid-engine design the spin characteristics are distinctly different. Perhaps I am getting more aggressive Boxster students then 911 students, but I don't think that is the case. I believe this is because the 'ragged edge' is thinner in the Boxster.

Granted a mid engine car's more agile and responsive nature will also make it spin nicely if you control (in general) the Boxster specifically (as noted by many automative journalists, and forum members here) seems to have a more forgiving nature many other cars.

I think it can almost be stated as FACT that a 911 (even the 996 which is considerably tamer than previous models) is not, and will not ever be an easier car to drive or easier to handle at the limit. I would say it's "difficult nature" comes almost exclusively from it's rear engine design and it's "lift off oversteer" tendancies. This is about the worst possible attribute a car could have for a novice driver. You are going too fast through a turn, your immediate instinct is slow down, the first step is lifting off the gas, the car begins to oversteer and spin.


There could be many reasons for this and this is hardly a scientific observation. I have a possible cause for this observation however: I have observed that many Boxster owners are first time Porsche owners (or even sports car owners), younger owners, women owners (interprett his how you will but I know of far fewer female performance driving experts than male), etc. On the other hand many 911 owners are older and have owned many other sports cars and are often older and more expirienced. Many of these owners have even owned older 911s which were much harder to drive than their current 996's. Given these observations it doesn't surprise me that you observed more boxsters spinning: a cheaper car, owned by a younger, less expirienced crowd of drivers i would expect to see spin more often.

Alan Herod

I'm glad you clarified that, I thought it was so I could have two trunks.

I am really not arguing that point with you. I agree that the Boxster is a superior design. The very point you are arguing about is what raises the bar (or limit). When the limit gets higher, things happen quicker which is difficult for the average driver to handle. Are you implying that the tendency for trailing throttle over-steer is not present in the Boxster without PSM? What I was trying to get across and perhaps not very clearly, is that the 911 telegraphs its intention well in advance and with much more warning then the Boxster.

You make some interesting points. I really have not kept up with Road and Track and only religously read Excellence and Pano. Which mid-engine super car has 50/50 weight distribution? Is that in fact ideal for handling?

brh986

Am I not certain that exactly 50/50 is hands down the best but certainly something near it is what is desired wouldn't you agree? Certainly mid engine is the choice for the highest performance cars of the world.

I'm not sure I agree that the 911 gives more warning but i fully understand where you are comming from. I haven't driven them back to back recently.

Carrera GT

The Boxster is sensitive to tyres and suspension settings -- I had one for a few years and noticed it was not tolerant of poor tyres. Just the transformation in going from S02's to Pirelli Assi's was worth an increase in cornering speed. I'm sure it would have gone further on R rubber like RA-1's or the Rosso's.

If someone complained of nervous or sudden transition to oversteer, I recommended they do what I did -- put on fresh tyres and get the alignment done with as much camber as they could get. Just dialling out the factory-settings (plow-on understeer) is a revelation when the car was new.

As far as Porsches go, while I'm sort of wedded to the 993, I think the Boxster S, with a decent engine -- if still 150hp short of what the car could use easily -- and big enough brakes and 6spd plus all the added value of improved rear suspension and being a open air driving experience, well, it's tremendous bang or the buck in Porsche dollars and the '00 and '01 cars have come down a long way in price.

ps. I can't recall any comparison test of a C5 or Z06 versus Boxster S, but the raw horses of the 'Vette in either model will get away from Boxster assuming both cars are properly aligned and running decent rubber. Conversely, on a canyon run or short, technical track, I doubt the Corvette would be able to access its power.
It's also a helluva lot easier and cheaper to get even more horses out of the Vette and to remedy its suspension limitations to a fair degree.

Alan Herod

Will any of you have your Boxsters at Summit Point this weekend?

Ray S

Alan, you bring up a very interesting point.....

"Which mid-engine super car has 50/50 weight distribution? Is that in fact ideal for handling?"

I believe the idea that 50/50 is the "perfect" weight distribution is one of the great marketing lies out there right now. On the track in the hands of an experienced driver a rear weight bias seems preferable to me.

I believe this because a rear weight bias (all else equal) will provide superior braking and acceleration. Additionally, Porsche, Ferrari, and other makes have proven that careful suspention tuning and a staggered wheel width can eliminate (or at least minimize) any oversteer problems in steady state cornering.

What do you guys think?

Ray S

Unfortunately, I won't be there but I am going to Blackhawk and Road America in May!

Brian P

I will - I'll be car 871 and I'm looking for an instructor to take a few rides with me (and I could take a few rides with him) Hint, hint, nudge nudge.

Alan Herod

Brian -- count on it. We realize that everyone is rusty and it is going to be very cold and track tires won't work very well.

Brian P

Cool. I'll vouch for the rusty part. Weather.com is promising to take of the cold part.

doclaw64

50\50 wt distribution is not quite perfect. 25\25\25\25 is the best setup. The Z06 will beat the Boxster S on anything longer then an autocross and even then it might. The reason being is hp. It will accelerate faster out of turns then the Boxster. Also the Z06 is also a pretty good handling car to boot. I think it pulls .99g. I do have a Boxster S and I do really like it. Really

I take it out on the track and the S is a blast, but could use more power coming out of the turns. The Boxster does not give much warning of when it is going to go, but if you drive it enough you can feel when it is on the edge with your butt. I would never describe it as twitchy.

Mid engine is the best setup for a race car because most of the mass is in the center and the car will tend to rotate around the mass of the car. Suspension and tires and ... have a big input on how the car handles and can overcome the inherent understeer of front engine and oversteer of rear engine. It is just that you don't need as much suspension with a mid engine car.

Alan Herod

Twitchy is definitely not the right term and if I gave that impression, that was not my intention.

Cajun

Having bought both a Corvette and a Boxster new and put over 100k miles on both, I can say where the true comparison counts (longevity & reliability), the Boxster runs circles around the Vette. HOWEVER, the Corvette is a Chevy and parts are easier to come by and damn near anyone can pop the hood on the thing and figure it out...