Brian P

I compeletely agree. Real men used to just let their kids jump around in the car without using a seat belt. And real men didn't need cupholders either to hold their beer when they drove.

I miss those days.

Stoodo

S + Boxter = Boxster I agree... get the S

Cloud964

Hey Daytona24,
Why do you get all upset and defensive ? I think both are fine cars. I have owned oil cooled 911s for many years, and they are really fun. But the boxster, S or not, is real fun, too. People always think the generation they are in is the best, better than the next. But think about it, many generations have passed and we are in the best of time yet. I think we need to look into the past , but at the same time we need to look into the future,too.
I have owned 964s and a 993, now I have a boxster S (which I dearly love), and I am waiting for the 997. I feel blessed to be able to owned a Porsche.

Rob 3

Porsche had to expand its market. It couldn't survive on just one model, and they had to increase production efficiency, so commonality of parts (and partial platform sharing) was crucial to overall financial well-being. Yes, they could have stayed true to the old ways and followed the path to death and finanical ruin, or revamp the line-up and assembly process to maintain life. They still have the track car in the GT3, and brought in another set of customers with the Boxster. Look at recent sales numbers, they had a record year, but it was due to the totally new sales of an SUV with a bit of a drop in both 996 and Boxster volumes. They also could not ignore the largest automotive market in the world, the USA, and American tastes and life styles. Porsche still races and has a new ultra desirable car in the Carrera, but the fact is the MAJORITY of owners never see a track. I think they have done one heck of a job maintaining their core identity while expanding into other markets without losing their character....grow or die!

Daytona24

Haha, you people amuse me - first of all, the new 986/996 engines are NOT dry sump, and there have been SERIOUS engine lubrication problems for cars that have been tracked on a regular basis - so much so that Porsche no longer honors the warranty on bottom-end repairs if it has been tracked AT ALL. That's pathetic, Porsche.

And as far as the Boxster? Yes, a very fun car and well designed - however, it's made as cheaply as a Hyandai. Case in point, my good friend owned a 2000 Boxster S which he tracked a handful of times, here are the repairs he had to pay for during 8 months of ownership:

· Rear main seal – TWICE!! (first time covered, second time cost him over $2500 because “warranty not valid if car is tracked.”)
· Front suspension arm hairline crack, NOT covered – another $1000 bill including installation…
· Top and passenger door constantly rattling and squeaking, brought it in 3 times, every time they adjusted the top and/or re-greased the fittings – when he sold the car it was STILL squeaking
· One rear brake caliper seized on the track, had to pay over $500 including installation and brake flush

And by the way, you claim they don’t race the Boxster because they’re scared it’ll beat a 996? That’s a joke, just because it’s easier to drive doesn’t mean it’s faster around a track… Case in point, the RUF 3400S (Boxster S with 996 engine and many suspension upgrades) isn’t any faster around the Nurburgring than a stock 996 with sport suspension.

You call my comments “grade school,” give me a break – I’m angry because it’s people like you who make excuses for the huge flaws in the new Porsches, and continue to swear by them despite the fact that they’ve already lost their edge.

Anybody else have something stupid to say?

mackgoo

You mean to say that there never have been pre 73, as those are the only "real" 911's "lemons"?

Daytona24

Why do you all insist putting words in other people's mouth? Did I ever say ANYTHING about pre-73 being the only real 911s?

All I said was the new generation Porsches (986/996) are not good track cars. Period. And anyone who defends them as such needs a little dose of reality.

I enjoyed driving my friend's Boxster S very much - like I said before, it's a great street car and a very fun overall experience. However when you spend $55000 for a new Boxster only to find out that it falls apart like a stock corvette at the track, something is seriously wrong with the direction Porsche had gone. And furthermore, it's the people who buy these new cars, who are to blame. My friend is a true enthusiast, and he currently has an 85 Carrera which is his track car, and a 92 965 daily driver. He loved his Boxster S at first, but the overall quality was so disappointing that he probably won't buy a new Porsche again.

And don't question our motives when we criticize the Boxster S - we spend a lot of time speaking with people who, like us, track their cars seriously... And there is not ONE person who is happy with their Boxster on the track. It's hard to enjoy a trackday when you're worried about your main bearing starving for oil, or your street suspension parts giving out. Remember the flak Porsche got for 944/951 front suspension arms having problems at the track? They replaced each and every one that was under warranty, and some that weren't for 944 owners who experienced problems. Porsche's new attitude is, if you track your car, it's your problem if a part isn't designed to handle it.

By the way, even the new Ceramic Brakes Porsche has touted as such a breakthrough are not covered - several GT3 and GT2 owners have experienced cracked/disintegrating Ceramic Brakes (a $15k option no less), and Porsche's official stance is that they don't warranty any parts that are subjected to track use. Way to go Porsche, way to stand by your 'top of the line' products.

And don't put words in my mouth again.

Sean

Are you saying that the 996 GT3 is not a good track car?

With regard to warranty coverage, it was expanded in 2000 from 2 years / 24k miles to 4 years / 48k miles. So Porsche is actually providing greater warranty coverage than it ever has before.

Contrary to popular belief, past Porsches have not always been bulletproof. See, generally, the notorious 1974-77 2.7L 911 engines. The 2.7L engines suffered from a host of problems: pulled head studs, worn valve guides, weak cases, and overheating problems caused by thermal reactors used on the exhaust system.

I think you make some valid points about the dry sump, but you do so in an insulting fashion. It does not help your cause to insult other people.

BTW, there are plenty of people tracking their Boxsters without any trouble, and I expect this number to grow. If you want to learn more about tracking the 986, check out the Boxster Racing Board:

BOXSTER RACING BOARD

mackgoo

I am just asking you to consider that possibly your friends car was an out lier. I am curious how you define a dry sump? Must there be an external tank? Does the 996/986 engine have an oil pan at the bottom of the engine that holds almost 9 qt.s?
I do believe you started your exercise by stating the Boxster was not a real car like the "old" cars. I was just speaking as a purist that really the only real 911's were MFI and earlier. How does it feel to be one upped?

Daytona24

I don't quite follow "one upped," if you're insinuating that you know more about the old 911s than me, believe me you're definitely mistaken - anyway my point was regarding the new cars...

And I wasn't talking about the GT3, I was talking about the 996. Obviously you don't know the difference, but the GT3 engine is based off of the GT1-99 block, which is a dry-sump race engine. Therefore the GT3 engine shares almost NO parts AT ALL with the standard 996 engine - they're totally different. And I don't think it's fair to pay $80k for a 996 only to have a car that is not built to take track use. My point is that I think YOU (the new Porsche buyer) are getting screwed.

HOWEVER, even though I believe the GT3 is an awesome track car, I still wouldn't buy one (not that I can afford it right now anyway -$99k for a bare-bones track car!?). After talking with owners about factory support and warranty coverage on new Porsches (yes, even the GT3 and GT2, and I suspect probably the Carrera GT as well), it seems track use VOIDS any warranty on mechanical parts. In fact the only coverage that is not voided by track use appears to be emissions equipment and the corrosion coverage!

If you have no problem with Porsche advertising their cars as "racing bred," but then once you shell over your $80 grand they say "the car is not designed for track use," then go ahead and buy one.

I can't imagine what it was like for those guys to spend an extra $15 grand on the "ultimate braking system" and then Porsche doesn't back it up when the brakes completely fail after less than 5000 miles of use.

I don't understand why you continue to make excuses for Porsche, what do you owe the company? Just because they were once a great racing marque doesn't mean they still deserve your unwavering support despite their SUB-PAR new products.

And THAT is why I scorn the new breed of owners - they're the ones who make Porsche think that dry sump isn't necessary anymore, but a cupholder is.

The new Porsche - fun street cars, but no longer capable on the track.

Daytona24

By the way, my anger is directed not only at new Porsche owners but also at Porsche itself - I'm not trying to pick on Boxster or 996 owners, I almost bought one myself - but after hearing all the horror stories I thought better of it.

It just bothers me that you guys can't see what's happening right in front of your eyes with the quality of your cars. It's a shame, because the engineers are still cutting edge at Porsche - but the cutting COSTS seems to be their #1 goal - and I for one don't care that Porsche is hugely profitable again - some people say "if they didn't go mainstream, they couldn't survive independantly".... Well I think what they've done is worse, they've sold YOU THE ENTHUSIAST out, by building mediocre products and selling them at insane prices.

So if my remarks seem pointed at you that is not my intention, just general frustration with the entire situation.

Brian P

FWIW, I've tracked my car 50 days and my wife has added a few more to that. I've had a RMS issue and a "check engine light" problem. Both were picked up under warranty. Like you, I've heard of bunches of problems with the boxster, but they just haven't happened to me yet.

Also, I think "no warranty for tracked cars" is handled on a dealer by dealer basis. My advice would be that if you can't find a dealer who is willing to support you when you have track related problems, then find another dealer. If there's no dealer close, then buy a used car that's no longer under warranty - no sense paying for a warranty that you can't use.

mackgoo

Where is the 9 qt's of oil held?

Sean

Yes, I know the difference between the base 996 and the GT3/Turbo engine block. I was asking about the GT3 in context of your blanket statement that "new generation Porsches (986/996) are not good track cars." Thank you for clarifying that "the GT3 is an awesome track car." So either the GT3 is not a 996, or your previous statement was incorrect.

You have stated that modern Porsches are of low quality, and backed up your statement with the anecdotal evidence of one friend's ownership experience. In reply I would offer last year's J.D. Power's and Associates quality study, a scientific poll of 55,000 vehicle owners. Guess what company ranked number one in quality?

J.D. Power long-term quality survey
Problems per 100 vehicles

Manufacturer Score
Porsche 193
Toyota 196
Honda 215
Nissan 258
BMW 262
General Motors 264
Subaru 266
Average 273
Ford 287
DaimlerChrysler 311
Mitsubishi 339
Hyundai 342
Isuzu 368
Volkswagen 378
Suzuki 403
Daewoo 421
Kia 509

Here's a link to the study:
J.D. POWERS 2003 QUALITY STUDY

You have stated that Porsche's warranty coverage is poor. In fact, prior to the year 2000 the company only offered two years coverage. Today Porsche has doubled its warranty coverage to four years / 48,000 miles.

While I am inclined to be sympathetic to your concerns about PCCB and the dry sump, you have really only established one fact: you're angry.

Chill out. Life's too short to get so upset over such matters. If you really feel strongly (and I am serious), write Porsche. They will read your letter. Don't lash out at other Porsche owners...it's not winning many fans.

Daytona24

I guess you're the kind of jackass who likes to find a technicality in my statement and pick THAT apart, instead of what you KNOW I actually meant. Well congratulations, I should have been more specific...

The GT3 is a 996 by model designation, yes - but actually very few parts are shared besides the bodyshell - tranny is different, engine is different, brakes are different, suspension is totally different, body seam welding is even different. So yes it LOOKS like a 996. And apparently it fooled you.

Did you ever stop and think "gee, why would they use all those different parts - why not just lighten and stiffen a standard 996 and call that a GT3?" Well the answer is simple - the 996 isn't made for track use, period. And neither is your Boxster.

And I'm not surprised you get your "Quality Ratings" from JD Powers, obviously you're just like the rest of the sheep following the line into the Porsche dealership. Do you know where those figures come from? They come from the DEALERSHIPS who report the number of problems experienced. And with the profit margin they have on the new Porches, they have a reason to keep those numbers as low as possible. Now, if you had an OWNER'S poll of problems experienced, your results would be somewhat different. And regardless, most people who buy a new Porsche will never even see a racetrack, let alone drive their car on one. Mazda Miata owners are more likely to track their car than a Boxster owner in my estimation.

By the way Brian P, I'm glad you haven't experienced many problems with your Boxster. And I hope you continue to enjoy it. And realize that when I say "tracked" I don't mean PCA driver's education, I've seen soccer moms in minivans drive more aggresively than most people at driver's ed events, at least at the ones I used to go to at Sebring. I was referring to serious track driving, with a good driver.