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Silly me: I bought a 944 for E-street Autocross

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Silly me: I bought a 944 for E-street Autocross

 
Old 03-20-2017, 07:16 PM
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edfishjr
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Default Silly me: I bought a 944 for E-street Autocross

Made it back from the purchase in Denver to Alabama without a single issue, other than being stopped by heavy snow in Arkansas. Cruised like a dream between 75 & 80 all the way.

So far, I've replaced the K&N cone intake with the original airbox and removed 25 lbs of sound system amps, sub and wiring. Have belts and the new tensioner tool on the way, etc. (Back in the day I used the Kricket tool, after calibrating it to the Porsche tool.)

So, now I'm looking for some M030 struts I can get revalved and some wheels. I need 17 by 8 and 9, ET 52 and ET 57, or thereabouts. Probably have to go with CCW Classics. There were some 1992/93 968 wheels in that size, but I don't know where they might be found. Probably very rare.

I plan on updating this thread with my progress, in case anyone is interested in this fools errand!

Please feel free to comment/advise!

Here she is: a 1989 in really good shape, only one small dash crack,with the all-important M220 LSD.
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Old 03-20-2017, 07:55 PM
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Very cool!
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Old 03-21-2017, 09:05 AM
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I built a car like this. Johntorg has it currently with no engine. Not sure what he left on the car but it had the m030 everything (torsion bars, away bars, struts with the height collars), 16" phonies and a spare set of forged club sports, sport seat, short 5th transaxle with lsd.

Save yourself some very difficult parts hunting and just make him an offer on it!
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Old 03-21-2017, 06:36 PM
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Finding the 8" and 9" wheels looks like more of an issue than I thought. So, I just ordered some 225/45-15 Rivals S 1.5's for the little 7" wheels I have now.

I'll run those plus a Tarret front sway bar for the first half of the year.

My plan is to lull the rest of E-Street to sleep, then surprise them later.

Yeah, that'll work.
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Old 03-22-2017, 09:59 AM
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One I had was fun in ES and you could get an insane alignment on the m030 setup. Low, tons of camber, etc. But it still handled like a boat.

Main problem I had was that it killed ball joints on the regular, and since I couldn't run camber plates in ES, I was going through about 3 sets of junkyard upper strut mounts a year. They would blow out the rubber and start contacting the hood under braking!
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Old 03-22-2017, 10:00 AM
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And why don't you just get some 16" club sports? Are there no good tires in 16 anymore?
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Old 03-22-2017, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by knfeparty View Post
And why don't you just get some 16" club sports? Are there no good tires in 16 anymore?
There are "ok" 16's, but not optimum. Better 15's, actually.
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Old 03-22-2017, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by knfeparty View Post
One I had was fun in ES and you could get an insane alignment on the m030 setup. Low, tons of camber, etc.
Be careful with the alignment, specifically the ride height. I was told after the fact that I was running my 968 too low, and as a result its roll center was (literally?) underground.

To this day I don't know exactly what that means, but the guy who told me that has literally decades of Porsche setup experience and is a professional race setup engineer, so it's probably true.
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Old 03-22-2017, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by edfishjr View Post
I need 17 by 8 and 9, ET 52 and ET 57, or thereabouts. Probably have to go with CCW Classics. There were some 1992/93 968 wheels in that size, but I don't know where they might be found. Probably very rare.
Are you sure about that? The biggest wheels that were legal for my much later, heavier, and more powerful 968 M030 were 17" x 7.5" F, 17" x 9" R. I'd be surprised if your earlier 944 came with bigger wheels, but I have no documentation to corroborate or refute that suspicion.
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Old 03-22-2017, 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by PedalFaster View Post
Be careful with the alignment, specifically the ride height. I was told after the fact that I was running my 968 too low, and as a result its roll center was (literally?) underground.

To this day I don't know exactly what that means, but the guy who told me that has literally decades of Porsche setup experience and is a professional race setup engineer, so it's probably true.
It means low jacking force!

It's common for people to lower their cars thinking it's faster and REALLY screw up handling something awful.
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Old 03-23-2017, 11:46 AM
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I think there's a rule that says something to the effect of you can't lower the car to achieve more than 2* of camber in street class. I wasn't really sure on the interpretation of the rule, but at its lowest I think it was capable of something like 2.7* on each corner. I never did wear out my race tires; sold them with the car!
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Old 03-23-2017, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by knfeparty View Post
I think there's a rule that says something to the effect of you can't lower the car to achieve more than 2* of camber in street class. I wasn't really sure on the interpretation of the rule, but at its lowest I think it was capable of something like 2.7* on each corner. I never did wear out my race tires; sold them with the car!
There's no such rule. Adjusting ride height through its entire range is explicitly permitted by 13.8.B:

Both the front and rear suspension may be adjusted through their designed range of adjustment by use of factory adjustment arrangements or by taking advantage of inherent manufacturing tolerances. This encompasses both alignment and ride height parameters if such adjustments are provided by the standard components and specified by the factory as normal methods of adjustment.
I just looked at my old notes, and we ran -3.6 degrees on the front of my 968. (Did I mention that we had it pretty low?)

Originally Posted by PedalFaster View Post
Are you sure about that? The biggest wheels that were legal for my much later, heavier, and more powerful 968 M030 were 17" x 7.5" F, 17" x 9" R. I'd be surprised if your earlier 944 came with bigger wheels, but I have no documentation to corroborate or refute that suspicion.
I haven't found an ordering guide, but the widest wheel combo listed for the 944 on WheelCollision.com is 7.5" F / 9" R.
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Old 03-23-2017, 01:27 PM
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According to here is 16x7/16x7 for a late NA. Only the '88 Turbo S (& 89 turbo) got the 7.5&9.

I found an '87 brochure here.

EDIT:
Hmm, I wonder if this from the PET would be protest proof:



Can you find any proof that M030 was orderable on a 8v car?

Last edited by burglar; 03-23-2017 at 04:53 PM.
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Old 03-23-2017, 10:59 PM
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So here's the story. See if you guys think it holds water.

First of all, yes, there was M030 for the '89 944. Mostly, but not exactly the same as the Turbo M030. The springs were different, for instance. This is very clear from the 89-91 PET, which specifically limits these M030 parts to the '89 non-turbo, non-S2.

Like all PETs, the 89-91 PET has a list of options in the back. This is clearly not a compendium of all options ever offered as they change from PET to PET. They are specific to the years covered by that PET. M394 is option for the 16 by 8" and 9" magnesium phone dials that were used in the various 944 racing series in several different countries, including the US. Most were turbos, some were S2's, as I recall. I've actually seen one of the 7 US cars for such a series at Trissl in Florence, Alabama. It has these wheels and the offsets are known. It was always a longstanding tradition for Porsche to offer "special" wheels, such as the C2 Turbo wheels, on other cars. C2 Turbo wheels were standard on only one, low-rate model, but were available as options on C2/C4 and 968, for instance. Makes good business sense to increase the rate.

So, if it's in the PET as an option, I say you could have ordered a car with them.

Now, one could argue that I can't prove which year this option became available. Maybe it didn't become available until "90? I think I'm covered there also, because the same option is also in the 86-88 PET. The wheels were first used in 86 on the "race" version cars, so clearly they existed and were optional wheels long before '89. So, if M394 is in the earlier PET, it must have been available in the first year of the later PET.

I haven't researched 968's, but I'm pretty sure the C2 Turbo wheels (17 x 8 & 9) were an option for at least 2 years. I've found it multiple places. I think it was M403, at least on the 911.

Last edited by edfishjr; 03-23-2017 at 11:29 PM.
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Old 03-23-2017, 11:23 PM
  #15  
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Originally Posted by PedalFaster View Post
Be careful with the alignment, specifically the ride height. I was told after the fact that I was running my 968 too low, and as a result its roll center was (literally?) underground.

To this day I don't know exactly what that means, but the guy who told me that has literally decades of Porsche setup experience and is a professional race setup engineer, so it's probably true.
The roll center in the front supposedly goes below the ground (at least some smart people think so... I haven't actually seen proof) if the lower control arm becomes less than horizontal. But, guess what? The world doesn't stop spinning if this happens. Nothing goes crazy. Corvettes have both roll centers very close to the ground and sometimes below, especially the front. The sun rises the next day.

Low roll centers are used, in big part, because it minimizes jacking forces. You can actually get anti-jacking with a below-ground roll center, which changes the handling characteristics. J-Rho is on record as saying in many cases he'd rather have the lower CG and live with a little wonky handling.

However, there is a problem with the ball joints of 944's if you go too low. They will bind and break the arm. I never had any trouble with my S2 with the lower arms set horizontal at static load.
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