Your PCA Region AX classes?
12-13-2012, 08:41 AM
#16
Race Director
Hi Porrsha, Sorry you are gettin' "beat up" but it's not coming from me. I have class definition files for AXWare that match the PCR car classing for the full parade classes as well as for the medium sized event classes defined in section A-9.2 of the PCRs. In fact, the medium class definition file also included PAX-like index numbers to scale any Porsche to any other Porsche at the event. These PAX numbers were developed by my home region over the last few years of our autox events. I can send you the class definition files directly if you want.
That being said, you might consider using the small event classing definition in section A-9.1 of the PCRs since you are only getting roughly 20 Porsches at your autox events. I could build an AXWare class definition file to match the small event car classes if that would help you out. Just let me know.
Of course, you are free to use any car classing scheme you like for your region. I'm just trying to help.
Cheers,
Henry
PCA National Autox Chair
That being said, you might consider using the small event classing definition in section A-9.1 of the PCRs since you are only getting roughly 20 Porsches at your autox events. I could build an AXWare class definition file to match the small event car classes if that would help you out. Just let me know.
Of course, you are free to use any car classing scheme you like for your region. I'm just trying to help.
Cheers,
Henry
PCA National Autox Chair
PM sent. I think national should be involved with Axware on a national basis so the classes can be downloaded from them.
Wayne
12-22-2012, 12:11 PM
#17
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I would be interesting to see the development of a pax system for P cars coming from PCA. We have some regions that use a paxing model adapted from other sources. I must admit it is fun to run in completion with other models. You don't want it not become an arms race where to be competitive you have to spend big. It's about the people 
The Parade rules do a good job of allowing for modification with Street and Production. The big bang is Tires, but not everyone wants to be plunking >$1K a year for that extra 2-3 seconds.
The other side of the coin is to make it easy to administer. I must say GGR has a developed a system that a statistician would love. I does make adjustments for about everything but would be difficult to manage with out the internet. If it gets good enough to level set the field, then do you have one big class and a top three for the day?
It has been interesting to see what some of the other regions have been doing. (Is this like a PCA only thread We too are evaluating if we need to make changes in our classing and as mentioned, is this our Kobayashi_Maru? Not so much an insolvable problem but a matter of redefining what the problem is? Inequities in classes is not PC. Yes, you may not be winning your class, but who is learning more out of this? The driver who just keeps driving like they always do on the street or the driver that is trying to make up a deficit? They have to question all aspects of their driving and self imposed mental limitations.
The Parade rules do a good job of allowing for modification with Street and Production. The big bang is Tires, but not everyone wants to be plunking >$1K a year for that extra 2-3 seconds. The other side of the coin is to make it easy to administer. I must say GGR has a developed a system that a statistician would love. I does make adjustments for about everything but would be difficult to manage with out the internet. If it gets good enough to level set the field, then do you have one big class and a top three for the day?
It has been interesting to see what some of the other regions have been doing. (Is this like a PCA only thread
We too are evaluating if we need to make changes in our classing and as mentioned, is this our Kobayashi_Maru? Not so much an insolvable problem but a matter of redefining what the problem is? Inequities in classes is not PC. Yes, you may not be winning your class, but who is learning more out of this? The driver who just keeps driving like they always do on the street or the driver that is trying to make up a deficit? They have to question all aspects of their driving and self imposed mental limitations.
12-22-2012, 04:52 PM
#18
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For the Oregon Region of PCA, our classing is listed here: http://www.oregonpca.org/events/auto...s-regulations/
It seems to be ok and has been evolving for several yaers. We have about 60-80 cars each event with about half being Porsches.
It seems to be ok and has been evolving for several yaers. We have about 60-80 cars each event with about half being Porsches.
12-23-2012, 08:21 AM
#19
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We have developed some PAX indices for the PCA-PCR classes and can send them to you if you like.
Cheers,
Henry
12-26-2012, 06:47 PM
#21
Rennlist Member
I am surprised to learn that Chicago PCA gets such a small turnout. You need to find a better site! (Just guessing...)
NNJR-PCA gets about 80-110cars (porsches and non porsches) at our events. In 2012 we switched to PCR rules and use the recommeded medium size classing, even though we are a large region. Fewer classes are better! We also adopted Henry's PAX numbers that were developed by Metro NY over the past few years. The Metro PAX are a great starting point and will allow you to add a very important FTD PAX trophy to your event. Over time you can amend the PAX numbers to better suit your club, because they were created based on Metro results. If a great driver comes in a good car in a class that didn't historically do well at Metro event, he will win pax. (That happened to us this year. Not sayin' who, he knows his PAX was soft!) Conversely, (as an example) anyone who drives an improved 944T has to fight a PAX number developed from results posted over the years by Henry Hoeh, an excellent autocrosser (and all around good guy), and it will be difficult to win PAX.
No matter what, with 25 cars its tough...Good Luck!
Rick Newman
NNJR-PCA gets about 80-110cars (porsches and non porsches) at our events. In 2012 we switched to PCR rules and use the recommeded medium size classing, even though we are a large region. Fewer classes are better! We also adopted Henry's PAX numbers that were developed by Metro NY over the past few years. The Metro PAX are a great starting point and will allow you to add a very important FTD PAX trophy to your event. Over time you can amend the PAX numbers to better suit your club, because they were created based on Metro results. If a great driver comes in a good car in a class that didn't historically do well at Metro event, he will win pax. (That happened to us this year. Not sayin' who, he knows his PAX was soft!) Conversely, (as an example) anyone who drives an improved 944T has to fight a PAX number developed from results posted over the years by Henry Hoeh, an excellent autocrosser (and all around good guy), and it will be difficult to win PAX.
No matter what, with 25 cars its tough...Good Luck!
Rick Newman
12-28-2012, 06:58 AM
#22
Lots of Ways to Skin a Cat!
I autocross with 2 Porsche clubs and 3 brand X clubs. Each P club I run with uses variations on the PCA rules plus PAX. The other clubs I run with have very limited class structure, basically: novice, experienced street tire and experienced race tire, and sometimes specific make street tire and race tire. I like both types of class structures for very different reasons and have just as much fun at all events. There are pros and cons to any type of scoring system and many of the merits of each have already been discussed.
You might consider inviting your board to an event so they can see for themselves the delimma you're facing. It might help persuade them to make change. You night try participating at other events for comparisons to see how they run with small #s.. Is your low participation rate typical for events in your area or is it just your club? You might also want to survey your event participants, they may have opinions that could be useful. FWIW, I have found over the years that its things like event organization, # of runs, down time, difficult work assignments, etc that usually determine the popularity/success of an autocross (or any other event for that matter). You can have the best rule structure around but that doesn't guarentee a successful event.
Good Luck!
You might consider inviting your board to an event so they can see for themselves the delimma you're facing. It might help persuade them to make change. You night try participating at other events for comparisons to see how they run with small #s.. Is your low participation rate typical for events in your area or is it just your club? You might also want to survey your event participants, they may have opinions that could be useful. FWIW, I have found over the years that its things like event organization, # of runs, down time, difficult work assignments, etc that usually determine the popularity/success of an autocross (or any other event for that matter). You can have the best rule structure around but that doesn't guarentee a successful event.
Good Luck!
12-30-2012, 11:13 PM
#23
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
I think part of the low participation # is the availability of events with other competing clubs. We hardly get any non-Porsches. What's odd is that we host an autocross school the weekend before our first D.E. event of the year and get 100+ participants. I know there is a lot of cross-over from AX school to the first D.E. but we rarely get people that come back a few weeks later for the first AX of the season.
We're trying a few different things this year with the schedule to try to get a few more new folks over from the school to an actual event. And next year the school itself will be completely different (while it's been billed as an "AX school" it had a lot of DE components to it... something we haven't been able to sway the instructor to change. I and a few others are taking the school over next year so BIG changes will happen then...)
We're trying a few different things this year with the schedule to try to get a few more new folks over from the school to an actual event. And next year the school itself will be completely different (while it's been billed as an "AX school" it had a lot of DE components to it... something we haven't been able to sway the instructor to change. I and a few others are taking the school over next year so BIG changes will happen then...)
01-10-2013, 09:53 PM
#25
No class structure is perfect because its nearly impossible to have classes for every car at a given event based on logistics.
I wish PCA national would come up with a simplified universal class system for all events (regardless of event size) and a PAX for every year/model.
This would enable events of any size, with any variety of cars to be held anywhere in the country with some consistency. Having consistent software for scoring available would help the organizers.
01-12-2013, 05:03 PM
#26
AutoX
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Here are some reasons why an index can never be perfect:
Overall car performance can vary from site to site, due to weather, due to course design, etc.
Rick, (2.5 Box) suggested that the Metro index was conceived from historical data from past Metro events, however; it wasn't. In fact, the Metro PAX was developed by me based solely on my expected performance potential for different cars in different classes. I'm glad NNJR adopted my index for their club, but encourage them to alter the numbers however they see fit. I'd also love to hear which class numbers do not appear accurate, and why. Got a fast P3 car in your region? Perhaps it is the driver and not the index?
I will gladly share the Metro index with anyone who wants to use it. It is based on the 'Medium Size' Parade classes, however, I can also alter it for the large, small, or full class set.
Not happy with the P2 class with the medium region? Go ahead and alter it to suit your region. Which is the car that does not belong in the current medium P2 class? In our region, P2 is currently the most competitive P2 class with wins split evenly between an early 911, 944s and 924s.
Sincerely,
Metro PCA PAX Monkey
Richard Wayne
Overall car performance can vary from site to site, due to weather, due to course design, etc.
Rick, (2.5 Box) suggested that the Metro index was conceived from historical data from past Metro events, however; it wasn't. In fact, the Metro PAX was developed by me based solely on my expected performance potential for different cars in different classes. I'm glad NNJR adopted my index for their club, but encourage them to alter the numbers however they see fit. I'd also love to hear which class numbers do not appear accurate, and why. Got a fast P3 car in your region? Perhaps it is the driver and not the index?
I will gladly share the Metro index with anyone who wants to use it. It is based on the 'Medium Size' Parade classes, however, I can also alter it for the large, small, or full class set.
Not happy with the P2 class with the medium region? Go ahead and alter it to suit your region. Which is the car that does not belong in the current medium P2 class? In our region, P2 is currently the most competitive P2 class with wins split evenly between an early 911, 944s and 924s.
Sincerely,
Metro PCA PAX Monkey
Richard Wayne
01-17-2013, 12:35 AM
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Neil
02-06-2013, 05:52 PM
#28
San Diego region
Here's is GGR's system. Works fairly well, though it's a bit odd to say have my car in stock trim on streets vs. an early modded car on slicks in the same class. No system is perfect
http://zone8.pca.org/CarClass/About.aspx
We used the same classes for TT as well as AX rather than having separate classes.
Our autocrosses usually run form 80-100 with 10-12 event annually.
Greg Phillips
02-08-2013, 01:35 PM
#29
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
So we're close to finalizing a solution - thanks to everybody here who offered an opinion. I'll post up a link to the final stuff when it's ready... but for a quick summary:
We basically took everything pre-1995 and lumped them into 2 categories, "Vintage-1" and "Vintage-2". There are a few exceptions (we pulled the 964 Turbo 3.6 out of V, along with a couple others) but otherwise everything is together, with 180hp being the split between 1 and 2. Power-to-weight was something we looked at, but also just overall driveability, availability of stuff like ABS, newer more modern suspension design, etc. i.e. A mid-80s Carrera might make the same power as an early Boxster, and is lighter... but it's certainly far more difficult to drive around an AX course and really isn't fair to put them together. The cars actually didn't fall too far from PCA Club Race classifications.
We then divided the newer cars up into more granular classes. Almost every participant is in some sort of Boxster or water-cooled 911 so it just made sense to save the class granularity for the newer cars. (These participants also tend to be our most vocal...)
To address issues with modifications to cars, we came up with a simple "points" system. Each mod gets you "x" points, and every 5 points gets you a class bump. Both the local Audi and BMW clubs do it this way and have had good success with it. We don't have very many cars that are modified beyond factory spec so I don't expect it will get used very much, but at least there is a provision for it. We considered applying a time penalty instead but it gets tough to come up with something that's fair. We have a 2.2% time penalty for tires with a treadwear below 140 and we've had questions and complaints - some say it's too harsh, others say it's not enough. We give them an "out" by not applying the penalty in Modified class (which we use as "anything goes Porsche" class) - but they're up against some more serious cars and drivers there (including a guy who is FAST in a real life '72 911 ST-R).
We basically took everything pre-1995 and lumped them into 2 categories, "Vintage-1" and "Vintage-2". There are a few exceptions (we pulled the 964 Turbo 3.6 out of V, along with a couple others) but otherwise everything is together, with 180hp being the split between 1 and 2. Power-to-weight was something we looked at, but also just overall driveability, availability of stuff like ABS, newer more modern suspension design, etc. i.e. A mid-80s Carrera might make the same power as an early Boxster, and is lighter... but it's certainly far more difficult to drive around an AX course and really isn't fair to put them together. The cars actually didn't fall too far from PCA Club Race classifications.
We then divided the newer cars up into more granular classes. Almost every participant is in some sort of Boxster or water-cooled 911 so it just made sense to save the class granularity for the newer cars. (These participants also tend to be our most vocal...)
To address issues with modifications to cars, we came up with a simple "points" system. Each mod gets you "x" points, and every 5 points gets you a class bump. Both the local Audi and BMW clubs do it this way and have had good success with it. We don't have very many cars that are modified beyond factory spec so I don't expect it will get used very much, but at least there is a provision for it. We considered applying a time penalty instead but it gets tough to come up with something that's fair. We have a 2.2% time penalty for tires with a treadwear below 140 and we've had questions and complaints - some say it's too harsh, others say it's not enough. We give them an "out" by not applying the penalty in Modified class (which we use as "anything goes Porsche" class) - but they're up against some more serious cars and drivers there (including a guy who is FAST in a real life '72 911 ST-R).
05-29-2013, 10:14 PM
#30
Rennlist Member
Jim, I hope you guys got it together, isn't the first autocross this weekend!?!? haha! . By the way is tony feeling better and able to drive this year??? Hope it all goes well and crazy to hear about the transition with the new water cars making up the majority. Can't wait to hear how it goes!
. By the way is tony feeling better and able to drive this year??? Hope it all goes well and crazy to hear about the transition with the new water cars making up the majority. Can't wait to hear how it goes!
