ToSi

Is that the prediction of the super-secret classing spreadsheet y'all use? Cause I haven't heard of it happening in real life yet.

Curious, how many letters were written vs. how many does it take to sway the favor of the SEB? Assuming all 8 mentioned in last month's FT were in support, how many more required? Or, was it a case of more S2000 guys writing to keep the 986 out?

ToSi

LOL, easy there hotrod.. I hear there's a 911 that's been developed to a point where it is capable of 'upsetting the competitive balance of ST' running around in Michigan & NW Ohio... Surely, it'll only be a matter of time before the powers that be recognize this glaring loop hole in the classing & remedy the situation

kjchristopher

We have a couple spreadsheet tools that we use. They have been posted on the internet before, so I don't think your label of "super-secret" is applicable - though you may choose to believe that if you wish.

I'll point out again that we use these as tools. The results of the data that go into the calculations, which deal primarily with thrust, thrust at mph, weight and grip, are vetted and reviewed in light of other experiences and considerations, such as width, suspension design and chassis layout. It is eerie how accurate the indicators are when viewed in a limited subset (such as comparing ten cars for a single class), as intended.

And in the end, we kick up our recommendation to the SEB. Sometimes they accept our recommendation and sometimes they change it some.

PedalFaster

Can't be legally done on the 996 either. The GT3 that was leading Super Stock after the first day of the 2010 Nationals was protested after someone who had tried and failed to fit 285s on their GT3 noticed that the protested car had 285s on. Turns out that it was only able to fit 285s because the front fenders had been clearanced; I believe that the car owner claimed that the fenders had been self-clearanced by the tires, but the protest committee ruled the car non-compliant.

KJ, do you have an URL for the spreadsheet that you're willing to share?

I may have already mentioned this on this thread, but when I was very, very briefly on the SAC a million years ago, here's how the committee was composed:

• Brian Conners: Now runs a Boxster Spyder nationally
• Andy McKee: 2001 AS national championship winner in a Boxster
• GH Sharp: Had previously run a Boxster S nationally, as well as a Cayman S briefly
• Rob Falkner: Had previously run a Boxster S nationally, and managed a third place in Super Stock in it (!)
• Me: Ran a 968 nationally at the time, and a Boxster S after that; I've owned five Porsches in total
• Rob Foley: No Porsche connection
• SEB liason: Ron Bauer, was busy dominating BS on the West Coast in my 968 at the time, and came in third at Nationals in it

Despite that lineup, we were regularly accused on this very forum of having an anti-Porsche bias. Go figure.

burglar

Quiet - I purposely placed 17th out of 23 at the pro to keep the Eye of Sauron off the car. Yes, I'm sticking to that.

PedalFaster

ToSi

How very polite of you.. I'm sure the Miata & S2000 owners (& their egos) appreciate that very much.

PS: WTF is an 'eye of saffron'? Is that some kind of Dungeons 'n Dragons or Trekkie jargon? You aircooled guys were always weird...

Yes please.. I found a reference to a spreadsheet that the Oracle himself (Mr. Andy Hollis) mentioned circa 2010 but haven't been able to find the document itself. Curious what adjustment factor is given to mid-engine platforms vs. FR & the history for how it was derived..

NJ-GT

Yes, it can be done. Run ET46 wheels, remove all the camber shims, get camber from the strut tops, lower the car in the front axle, enough camber for A6, front bar from a 2005 GT3 Cup set at one from full stiff.

Drew_K

For autocrossing a 997 GT3, what do you guys recommend for a front bar setting? I'm currently at full stiff in the rear and full soft in the front. OEM bars.

PedalFaster

I stand corrected.

You'd probably be better off starting your own thread -- people interested in discussing 997 setup probably won't go looking in a thread on STR Boxsters, and people looking in a thread on STR Boxsters may not be interested in 997 setup...

burglar

I think the big problem is the success of STR. It's consistently one of the biggest classes at every large event. The S2000 sheep are plentiful, but diversity is gaining with a lot of NCs, a rogue MR2 Spyder here and there, and a possibly paradigm changing 350z running around. It's a young and exploding class, I can see the board's hesitation to change something that's working so darn well.

On the other hand, STU is floundering. On paper it looks cool though - boost buggys and M3s. The C5 option might be a grasp to give it an injection of life.

Has anyone looked at some full blown Boxster Street Prepared builds? That could give a good indication of the gains possible, as ST is just SP lite.

Just out of curiosity, what would a cost-no-object STR Boxster build look like? What is the unicorn model and option combo? What diffs are available? How much power can you legally make? How much weight can you lose? Can you fit 255s all around? How much camber can you get up front with camber plates?

ToSi

Still no luck finding the spreadsheet (or GRM article) so I created my own comparing key specs of AP1 / AP2 vs 986 2.5 / 2.7 -> Google Docs - 986 vs S2000

Looks like the S2000's make equivalent or better wheel TQ & over a larger MPH range in 2nd. Weights are pretty close, given allowed changes I don't expect much difference @ max prep between the two. I don't think there are huge gains to be had from ST engine prep, someone correct me if I'm wrong. Maybe 10% peak power for each?

Haven't uncovered the magic factor that makes the 986 an over-dog yet... hints appreciated.

TQ curve approximations from various places online:
http://www.s2ki.com/forums/index.php...age&img=467212
http://world.honda.com/Tokyo2005/s20...e/photo/05.jpg

986 2.5 & 2.7 from owner's manuals.

sjfehr

986 is mid-engine! Of course, so, technically is the S2000.

986 is rear-mid-engine with a rear weight bias! Weight on the back really helps braking and being able to put down power coming out of corners; very hard to quantify the effectiveness in terms of tenths of a second, though.

DOUGLAP1

OK, I'll take the bait - I believe a competitive ST class Boxster would be mine:

1- 2002 Boxster S - Assuming 986 is allowed in. A 987 could be a slight advantage over a 986, but not much.
2- Custom valved AST 5000 series coil-overs
3- Spring rates similar to a Spec Boxster
4- GT3 front sway bar
5- GT3 lower control arms (can only use without camber plates per SCCA rules)
6- Reflashed DME
7- Sparco racing seats with manual slider adjustment
8- Light weight battery
9- Wavetrac LSD
10- Bose stereo delete (Bose option is way too heavy)
11- Under drive pulley
12- Wheel spacers as needed to push front and rear out as much as possible
13- OZ Allegerita wheels - 9" front and rear if running STR. 9" front and 10" rear if running STU
14- ZII or Rivals if available in 255 all around for STR, or 255 Front / 285 Rear for STU.

Note: Optimum set-up considering front to rear roll stiffness or front to rear camber could be very different for STR or STU set up due to the limited tire width allowed in STR.

IMHO, a square set-up with 255 F/R only works with these cars if you sacrifice some front grip by using less than optimum camber, or a less than optimum front roll stiffness. If you really dial in the front grip with a 255 front, then you need a larger rear tire (either a 275 or 285) to maintain good balance.

Personally, I had much rather have my car set-up for STU, but I always considered that STU was for 4 seat "grocery getters".

ToSi

ah, yes of course... everyone knows that.. except these guys who actually weighed an S2000 & learned otherwise:
http://www.modified.com/tech/0705_sc...0/viewall.html

http://www.modified.com/tech/0705_sc.../photo_14.html

Note, weights with 200lb driver suggest => 49% Front / 51% Rear

In fairness, the car had aftermarket coilovers & wheels. I expect zero effect on distribution.

Playing w/ numbers for both cars with empty tank suggests the boxster carries about 150lbs more weight on rear tires than the S2000, depending on model.

Remove spare / tools / misc items & a typical prep 986 will be close to 40% front weight - wait, 2600lbs, 200hp, 60% rear weight distribution sounds familiar -> 911SC anyone?

Next hint please..

& now Corvettes apparently..

Have you weighed your car?