SCCA STR Class for BoxsterS
Thread Starter
Rennlist Member
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 488
Likes: 147
I didn't just write a letter asking to get classed. I presented an argument based on published performance data from GRM magazine and other sources demonstrating thet the 986S had similar performance and Hp/weight ratios to the S2000. SCCA did not respond to my argument at all - they just stated their autocratic opinion. So, game over.
Pro
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 622
Likes: 3
From: Calgary, AB
I like Porsches a lot -- I've owned five, including two Boxsters -- but I still think the STAC / SEB made the right decision here for all of the reasons listed above.
Also, there have been two significant developments since this thread started. Firstly, the new Road Tire classes have been created. The Boxster looks better in RT than it does in Stock for two reasons -- it's mid-engined, so it can make better use of street tires' limited traction; and it has relatively wide wheels, which is more important for street tires than for R-compounds.
Secondly, there's a proposal out to move the MS-R Miata and Z0K Solstice from C Stock to B Stock. The proposal hasn't yet been ratified, but if it is, the base 986 will be one of the fastest, if not the fastest, car left in C Stock.
These two developments are particularly interesting when combined -- a C Stock Boxster on street tires could be a fantastic car in RTR.
So: while you seem intent to take your ball and go home, things are looking very good for Boxsters in SCCA autocross next year.
Also, there have been two significant developments since this thread started. Firstly, the new Road Tire classes have been created. The Boxster looks better in RT than it does in Stock for two reasons -- it's mid-engined, so it can make better use of street tires' limited traction; and it has relatively wide wheels, which is more important for street tires than for R-compounds.
Secondly, there's a proposal out to move the MS-R Miata and Z0K Solstice from C Stock to B Stock. The proposal hasn't yet been ratified, but if it is, the base 986 will be one of the fastest, if not the fastest, car left in C Stock.
These two developments are particularly interesting when combined -- a C Stock Boxster on street tires could be a fantastic car in RTR.
So: while you seem intent to take your ball and go home, things are looking very good for Boxsters in SCCA autocross next year.
Pro
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 622
Likes: 3
From: Calgary, AB
As an aside, if you really, really think the Boxster and/or Boxster S belongs in STR, a more effective way to make your point would be to build a mild- to moderate-prep STR Boxster and bring it to an event where there are some top national-level STR cars and drivers in attendance. Have everyone do runs in each others' cars to generate some real data; right now people on both sides of the debate are relying primarily on paper comparisons and hunches.
You could probably build a good-enough-for-comparison-purposes STR Boxster for under $3k -- buy four used rear wheels off of eBay (adjusting offset by adding spacers or machining material off of the mounting surface, as required), tires, camber plates, coilover adapters for the stock shocks, and some springs of the appropriate rate. Once set up, that car would probably be within a half second a of max prep car (the big missing pieces being weight reduction and engine tuning).
Sure, $3k isn't chump change, but you could recoup most of it reselling the parts afterward. Plus, if you proved your point that the Boxster isn't too fast for STR after all, you wouldn't have to sell them at all.
You could probably build a good-enough-for-comparison-purposes STR Boxster for under $3k -- buy four used rear wheels off of eBay (adjusting offset by adding spacers or machining material off of the mounting surface, as required), tires, camber plates, coilover adapters for the stock shocks, and some springs of the appropriate rate. Once set up, that car would probably be within a half second a of max prep car (the big missing pieces being weight reduction and engine tuning).
Sure, $3k isn't chump change, but you could recoup most of it reselling the parts afterward. Plus, if you proved your point that the Boxster isn't too fast for STR after all, you wouldn't have to sell them at all.
Instructor
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 150
Likes: 2
From: DFW
I didn't just write a letter asking to get classed. I presented an argument based on published performance data from GRM magazine and other sources demonstrating thet the 986S had similar performance and Hp/weight ratios to the S2000. SCCA did not respond to my argument at all - they just stated their autocratic opinion. So, game over.
Properly built and driven, it could probably take on STU on a good day.
Drifting
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,042
Likes: 84
From: Chesapeake, VA
Honestly, I don't care specifically of the Boxster is classed in STR or STU, I just want to be able to compete on street tires with a fair pax. STR seems on the surface to be the most appropriate place for it. I really don't think it will run away with the class as people think, as other factors (gearing, nannies, etc.) limit peak performance.
My car is unfortunately not the right car to use as a guinea pig; it's a tip with too many heavy luxury features. Great for a DD/regional car, but it's never going to be nationally competitive.
My car is unfortunately not the right car to use as a guinea pig; it's a tip with too many heavy luxury features. Great for a DD/regional car, but it's never going to be nationally competitive.
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,400
Likes: 39
From: McKinney, Texas
HP/Weight is almost a meaningless stat in this sport. We look at other things (see the spreadsheet on the July 8th post at http://www.rhoadescamaro.com/build/ for a sample of some of the things we consider) to gauge performance. When we input the Boxster's (both 2.5 and 2.7) into the same models that predicted the tight performance we have in STR today, the Boxster was a pretty clear outlier. I was hoping to find a place for it and left it on the agenda for many, many months working different angles. In the end, even I could see it had a serious potential for upsetting everything else in the class.
Properly built and driven, it could probably take on STU on a good day.
Properly built and driven, it could probably take on STU on a good day.
I have been involved with the SCCA since the late '60's and started autocrossing with them at the same time. What "parity" has created are basically "spec" classes that discourage new entrants, when they don't happen to have one of the "spec" cars that dominate.
The Solo Board should take some risk and introduce new cars and allow some diversity. This could re-vitalize some of the classes, get new participants and frankly make the competition that much more interesting.
If you make a mistake, then re-classify the following year.
My sense is that the SCCA does not like to "rock the boat" and I think that is one of the fundamental problems the club has today.
Thread Starter
Rennlist Member
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 488
Likes: 147
As an aside, if you really, really think the Boxster and/or Boxster S belongs in STR, a more effective way to make your point would be to build a mild- to moderate-prep STR Boxster and bring it to an event where there are some top national-level STR cars and drivers in attendance. Have everyone do runs in each others' cars to generate some real data; right now people on both sides of the debate are relying primarily on paper comparisons and hunches.
You could probably build a good-enough-for-comparison-purposes STR Boxster for under $3k -- buy four used rear wheels off of eBay (adjusting offset by adding spacers or machining material off of the mounting surface, as required), tires, camber plates, coilover adapters for the stock shocks, and some springs of the appropriate rate. Once set up, that car would probably be within a half second a of max prep car (the big missing pieces being weight reduction and engine tuning).
Sure, $3k isn't chump change, but you could recoup most of it reselling the parts afterward. Plus, if you proved your point that the Boxster isn't too fast for STR after all, you wouldn't have to sell them at all.
You could probably build a good-enough-for-comparison-purposes STR Boxster for under $3k -- buy four used rear wheels off of eBay (adjusting offset by adding spacers or machining material off of the mounting surface, as required), tires, camber plates, coilover adapters for the stock shocks, and some springs of the appropriate rate. Once set up, that car would probably be within a half second a of max prep car (the big missing pieces being weight reduction and engine tuning).
Sure, $3k isn't chump change, but you could recoup most of it reselling the parts afterward. Plus, if you proved your point that the Boxster isn't too fast for STR after all, you wouldn't have to sell them at all.
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Pro
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 622
Likes: 3
From: Calgary, AB
The Solo Board should take some risk and introduce new cars and allow some diversity. This could re-vitalize some of the classes, get new participants and frankly make the competition that much more interesting.
If you make a mistake, then re-classify the following year.
If you make a mistake, then re-classify the following year.
http://sebscca.com
Intermediate
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 48
Likes: 1
From: Forest City, NC
Douglap1
if you really want I could come drive yours. Seeing as I have caused the Boxster to
show too much potential in the Past 2nd in SS in 2000, 3rd in 2001 againts the Zo6.
and 3rd in 2003, lost the lead on the second day.
I feel the S2000 has developed into the premier car. When I was on the Stock Advisory
Board I said the S2000 was faster than the Boxster in 2000. It just took a while for the
developmant to catch up.
thanks Rob Falkner
if you really want I could come drive yours. Seeing as I have caused the Boxster to
show too much potential in the Past
2nd in SS in 2000, 3rd in 2001 againts the Zo6.and 3rd in 2003, lost the lead on the second day.
I feel the S2000 has developed into the premier car. When I was on the Stock Advisory
Board I said the S2000 was faster than the Boxster in 2000. It just took a while for the
developmant to catch up.
thanks Rob Falkner
Drifting
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,042
Likes: 84
From: Chesapeake, VA
Might Boxster/Boxster S actually be a good fit in STU? I looked back over the specs today, and aside from having a .4s worse pax than STR, it otherwise looks pretty close to the mods desired by most boxster owners- desnorkel, ROW M030, sport seats, custom wheels, aftermarket exhaust, gt3 control arms, LSD- all legal! Is all this enough to make an STU boxster as fast as a stock boxster on A6s, though?
Pro
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 622
Likes: 3
From: Calgary, AB
I wrote a letter requesting that the Boxster be allowed in STU, which has now turned into a request for member comment on putting the Boxster into STU *or STR*. Looks like you guys have a second chance to make your points. I'd like to suggest again that any letter that does not address the Boxster's traction advantage due to its mid-engine configuration is unlikely to be taken too seriously, given that they explicitly mention it in their request.
http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/...k-feb-solo.pdf
Street Touring
#9146 Boxster(s) Classing Proposal
The SEB is seeking member comment regarding possible classing for the 1997-2004 Porsche Boxster (986 chassis, non-S) in the Street Touring Category. Input is specifically requested regarding potential interest in and/or suitability of these cars for either STU or STR. The SEB is also interested in member feedback regarding the possibility of preparation adjustments (for example, tire width limitations for mid-engine RWD cars), in order to address possible competition imbalances.
#9146 Boxster(s) Classing Proposal
The SEB is seeking member comment regarding possible classing for the 1997-2004 Porsche Boxster (986 chassis, non-S) in the Street Touring Category. Input is specifically requested regarding potential interest in and/or suitability of these cars for either STU or STR. The SEB is also interested in member feedback regarding the possibility of preparation adjustments (for example, tire width limitations for mid-engine RWD cars), in order to address possible competition imbalances.
Last edited by PedalFaster; Jan 27, 2013 at 01:09 AM.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 903
Likes: 85
Easy, 'limited slip rear differentials may be installed, modified, or replaced only in vehicles which offered them as standard or optional equipment from the manufacturer, regardless of sub model. Vehicles which were not available with a factory installed limited slip differential (i.e., 97-04 986, all) may use their oem non-lsd only.'
Pro
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 622
Likes: 3
From: Calgary, AB
It would be a bummer to not be able to upgrade the diff in an STR Boxster. A change to the diff rule would also be a takeback for the few MR2 Spyders already running in STR. Not saying that's a bad idea, though; from the tone of the conversation up until now, I suspect the Boxster will have to accept *some* kind of prep limitation if it's going to get into STR (or potentially even STU).
A change to the diff rule would also be a takeback for the few MR2 Spyders already running in STR. Not saying that's a bad idea, though; from the tone of the conversation up until now, I suspect the Boxster will have to accept *some* kind of prep limitation if it's going to get into STR (or potentially even STU).
Drifting
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,042
Likes: 84
From: Chesapeake, VA
A wrote a letter requesting that the Boxster be allowed in STU, which has now turned into a request for member comment on putting the Boxster into STU *or STR*. Looks like you guys have a second chance to make your points. I'd like to suggest again that any letter that does not address the Boxster's traction advantage due to its mid-engine configuration is unlikely to be taken too seriously, given that they explicitly mention it in their request.
http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/...k-feb-solo.pdf
http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/...k-feb-solo.pdf
Honda S2000 is mid-engine, too (front-mid), and actually closer to 50/50 than the Boxster, with way more power. I really don't see why base 986 needs to be handicapped to compete in STR aside from general OMGPORSCHE fear.
I'm honestly more excited about the likelihood of stock class going to street tire next year. Partially (ok, mostly) because even if this change does go through, my 986S is still excluded from ST*.