rjkjlk4576

Would like to know how many members autocross a 997.1 or 997.2 C4S and how does it compare to a C2S. I am looking to trade in my 2008 Cayman S for a 911 coupe series 997, but so far the number of nice cars have been limited or have too many miles or the wrong options. As a result I was thinging of expanding my search to the C4S.

Is the C4S competitive with the C2S? If not why not? What has been the members experience? Appreciate everyones feedback.

Nugget

For autocross I wouldn't expect either car to be competitive with the Cayman, so it's a wash either way.

Autocrossing a 911 is an exercise in frustration -- either you're going to slow to get any front end grip and you plow through the cones with comical understeer, or you're being too violent with your inputs and chasing the back end the wrong way through the timing lights.

equiraptor

I'm the one who goes backward through the timing lights. I've actually gone backward through the timing light and maintained a clean run!

We autocrossed Nugget's C2S Cab for a while and it was an exercise in frustration (at least to me, after getting out of a Miata). After finding the car so frustrating, I discussed the handling dynamics with a friend who campaigns a 996 GT3 nationally. He confirmed my approach to autocrossing the car was correct - it really does have to go that slow through the tight corners. There's just not enough momentum to allow enough weight transfer to get front end grip.

The slaloms were also exceedingly frustrating. The 911's weight balance required a far slower entrance speed than the balanced cars allow, and requires acceleration through the slalom. The practice I'd developed in the Miata of a high entry speed and throttle balance to control rotation (and add some acceleration when possible) just couldn't be done in the 911.

The 911 was able to take some of the more open corners tighter than the other cars I've autocrossed, but it wasn't particularly fun, and it wasn't enough to make the C2S level 911s competitive with the more balanced cars. An Elise will eat your lunch, whether you have a C2S or a C4S.

utkinpol

it takes quite some time to get to the level to start feeling 997 dynamics and sense how to work its weight transfer and to what level pre-load shocks in what corner.
but I think it is not all that bad. generic power steering in sweepers works just fine with 997, it is just it all is a bit, well, different from a car with front weight bias. it is a power car and power should be used all the time, front should always be pre-loaded entering a corner until you go on gas and a bitch is to master that brake-gas transition smoothness so you do not upset that fine edge of a grip and spin out. when you master 997 to slide at 10/10th all the way you want it where you want it - it is a pretty fast car.

i responded on a 997 forum, to OP my advice was to look for 996 gt3 car if he want to do SCCA or serious AX sport, 997.1 car compared to his 's' croc is probably not a best bet.

equiraptor

It is a very different car from a Cayman. This was my point - I don't want someone to move to a 911 from a Cayman and be disappointed because their expectations were different from the reality.

Whether or not it's "that bad" is more of a personal thing than a hard fact. The power steering isn't a problem for me at all. Rather, the problem is that there is very little weight over the front wheels, and as a result in slow (for autocross) corners, it's difficult to get traction in the front tires. In the mid- and high-speed autocross corners, front traction isn't a problem, but in these cases there is enough momentum to shift weight to the front and gain traction there. I also disagree with your statement that power should be used all the time. There are many cases where the car will take a corner at higher speeds if you intentionally don't use power at the right places, putting weight on the front tires and allowing the back to slip.

Keep in mind, all of these experiences, all of the difficulties I had in the slow corners, etc. were shared by my friend in the GT3. He's been running that GT3 for years and is quite familiar with the handling dynamics. Perhaps the courses we were facing had some elements that were tighter and slower than on the courses you face.

The 911 can be a fast car, as evidenced by the GT3s that place well at Nationals. But being fast and being fun don't necessarily go hand-in-hand. The 911 has different handling dynamics from the Cayman - it's inherent to the different designs of the cars. At autocross, I find the balanced behavior of the Cayman more fun. Everywhere else (on the street, on the track, etc.) I find the 911's behavior more fun.

Yes, if you're looking to be competitive and want a 911 in stock class, the 996 GT3 is the car to get. They've taken wins in SS at Nationals. I'd choose an Elise instead, just because I enjoy the Elise more on an autocross course.

balefire

While my 996 is not a miata in handling, its not a miata in power either.
I'll argue that autox my 996 is also fun, in a different way.

Both the cayman and 911 achilles heel in SCCA stock is the front camber limit.
Besides that, its no secret which version would be the best autox version of a 997.
You want the lightest, highest hp, biggest tire fitting, with the most camber and stiffest springs.
Neither the C4s nor the cab fit that description.
The C4s awd has no autox advantage in acceleration because its heavy weight offsets what little gain there is in driving the front wheels.
The C4s weight then kills it everywhere else.
The cab is even heavier, and the cab loses rigidity to boot.

My next porsche for SCCA SS will be a 997.2 C2S + x51 + lsd + P17. Pretty much a GTS.
No P17 or LSD was available as a 997.1
No GT3 for me since I have kids I like to tote around quite often.
Please find that car and sell it to me in a few years. =)

equiraptor

Fun is something subjective, which is why my statements about fun were prefixed with a "I find" rather than a statement intended to apply to all.

The 997 GT3 isn't eligible for stock class, so it's not a good autocrosser unless you want to spend on mods. That means 997.2 C2S (coupe) for SS, but unfortunately it'll get beaten by the 996 GT3, Z06, and Elise/Exige (with the Z06 having more of an advantage on power courses and the Elise/Exige having the advantage on the tight courses). On a regional level this is unlikely to have a significant impact unless your region happens to have a lot of top-level SS drivers. In our region I wouldn't have a chance against Lance (Z06), Troy (996 GT3), or Scott (Elise).

utkinpol

i had same dilemma when I was shopping for a p-car as green light from my wife would turn red right away if I would say it is a 2 seater. I also need to keep rear seats...

i just went frankenstein way and got gt3 suspension in the c2 tub, so with -3 deg camber, 9/12 wide 18" rims car is behaving way differently, 265 tires in front grab just fine - but as an obvious downside - motor is too weak to be competitive but still it is a lot of fun to drive this car. it is a usual compromise - you either do it for fun or by the rules.

GTS is a nice car but i am kinda puzzled how easy it will be in future maintenance with this weird combination of wide and narrow body parts. plus, currently, what SCCA class will it fit into? what will be its competition? Z06? shelby?

equiraptor

The 911 GTS is in SS. It's a 997 chassis and isn't on the list of excluded 997s. It'll be competing against the Z06, Elise/Exige, and higher end Viper (and the newer Vipers can win SS - there were significant handling improvements on the later generations). The 987.2 S is also classed in SS (while the base 987.2 is in AS).

I wonder which Porsche will manage to beat the 996 GT3 without getting excluded from SS.

MechanicalEng

I think in SS a well optioned GTS could be very competitive, but still the C6 ZO6/996GT3 are the cars to have in SS.
For AS I think the 996 40th anniversary or a Cayman S would be the Porsches to have...

utkinpol

GTS has more power on paper, but 996 gt3 has less intrusive electronics, so, what car will be faster in slides - who knows. PDK car will definitely have a huge benefit as it will be able to jump between 1st-3rd gears when needed way faster than any human can do that, so, it may be benefitial. but it is heavy, stock camber is limited, no way stock GTS will be able to show same Gs what 996 GT3 can show with -3 deg of camber on A6 hoosiers.

as i understand SS class will not allow to put GT3 LCAs into GTS car?

MechanicalEng

SS will not let you add LCAs unfortunately, it would make the car A$P... GTS vs 6GT3 should be very close, remember that the GTS can fit more tire up front.

utkinpol

do you know if it sits on top of your mind - where would my 3.6L 997 c2 fit as it got dual adjustable JRZ RS shocks, upper GT3 rotating mounts (camber plates), lower LCAs, dogbones, etc.? I admit I am too lazy to read 2011 SCCA rules and compare to 2010 version. wheels are 9"/12" R18". car weights 3390lbs with me, 289rwhp or so on mustang dyno.

MechanicalEng

Your car sounds like a ASP, as long as you dont supercharge it or gut the interior, otherwise you will be SM.
ASP is basically a class for supercars, like 996/997 Turbos 997GT3s GT2s, Carrera GTs, all modern Ferraris, Vipers...
ASP also has all the "modified" SS cars

utkinpol

I see, that was what I suspected myself, ASP. Thanks for the confirmation.

In whole honesty I find it extremely odd that proper GT3 car with stronger engine goes into SS but weaker 997 C2 with OEM GT3 LCAs goes to ASP, but, rules are rules and I respect that.