AutoCrossing a 997.1or.2 C4S
03-24-2011, 12:51 PM
#16
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Your car sounds like a ASP, as long as you dont supercharge it or gut the interior, otherwise you will be SM.
ASP is basically a class for supercars, like 996/997 Turbos 997GT3s GT2s, Carrera GTs, all modern Ferraris, Vipers...
ASP also has all the "modified" SS cars
ASP is basically a class for supercars, like 996/997 Turbos 997GT3s GT2s, Carrera GTs, all modern Ferraris, Vipers...
ASP also has all the "modified" SS cars
03-28-2011, 08:18 PM
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utkinpol
do you know if it sits on top of your mind - where would my 3.6L 997 c2 fit as it got dual adjustable JRZ RS shocks, upper GT3 rotating mounts (camber plates), lower LCAs, dogbones, etc.? I admit I am too lazy to read 2011 SCCA rules and compare to 2010 version. wheels are 9"/12" R18". car weights 3390lbs with me, 289rwhp or so on mustang dyno.
What offsets are you using on your 9"/12" 18 wheels? With your current mods I imagine your car handles quite well. Where do you autocross in MA and is it PCA or SCCA? What year is your car?
do you know if it sits on top of your mind - where would my 3.6L 997 c2 fit as it got dual adjustable JRZ RS shocks, upper GT3 rotating mounts (camber plates), lower LCAs, dogbones, etc.? I admit I am too lazy to read 2011 SCCA rules and compare to 2010 version. wheels are 9"/12" R18". car weights 3390lbs with me, 289rwhp or so on mustang dyno.
What offsets are you using on your 9"/12" 18 wheels? With your current mods I imagine your car handles quite well. Where do you autocross in MA and is it PCA or SCCA? What year is your car?
03-29-2011, 03:28 PM
#18
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One of the problems I encountered, starting with the 996 was the PASM interference with left foot braking. I ran a 993 for years and had no issue with left foot braking but with the 996 and 997 software from Bosch there is no way to "turn off" the software. If you attempt to left foot brake then hit the throttle, that is when you will find yourself back asswards thru the timing lights. The ABS program requires a one thousand 1 one thousand 2 to reset after you even dab the brakes.
03-29-2011, 03:32 PM
#19
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For autocross I wouldn't expect either car to be competitive with the Cayman, so it's a wash either way.
Autocrossing a 911 is an exercise in frustration -- either you're going to slow to get any front end grip and you plow through the cones with comical understeer, or you're being too violent with your inputs and chasing the back end the wrong way through the timing lights.
Autocrossing a 911 is an exercise in frustration -- either you're going to slow to get any front end grip and you plow through the cones with comical understeer, or you're being too violent with your inputs and chasing the back end the wrong way through the timing lights.
I'm the one who goes backward through the timing lights. I've actually gone backward through the timing light and maintained a clean run!
We autocrossed Nugget's C2S Cab for a while and it was an exercise in frustration (at least to me, after getting out of a Miata). After finding the car so frustrating, I discussed the handling dynamics with a friend who campaigns a 996 GT3 nationally. He confirmed my approach to autocrossing the car was correct - it really does have to go that slow through the tight corners. There's just not enough momentum to allow enough weight transfer to get front end grip.
The slaloms were also exceedingly frustrating. The 911's weight balance required a far slower entrance speed than the balanced cars allow, and requires acceleration through the slalom. The practice I'd developed in the Miata of a high entry speed and throttle balance to control rotation (and add some acceleration when possible) just couldn't be done in the 911.
The 911 was able to take some of the more open corners tighter than the other cars I've autocrossed, but it wasn't particularly fun, and it wasn't enough to make the C2S level 911s competitive with the more balanced cars. An Elise will eat your lunch, whether you have a C2S or a C4S.
We autocrossed Nugget's C2S Cab for a while and it was an exercise in frustration (at least to me, after getting out of a Miata). After finding the car so frustrating, I discussed the handling dynamics with a friend who campaigns a 996 GT3 nationally. He confirmed my approach to autocrossing the car was correct - it really does have to go that slow through the tight corners. There's just not enough momentum to allow enough weight transfer to get front end grip.
The slaloms were also exceedingly frustrating. The 911's weight balance required a far slower entrance speed than the balanced cars allow, and requires acceleration through the slalom. The practice I'd developed in the Miata of a high entry speed and throttle balance to control rotation (and add some acceleration when possible) just couldn't be done in the 911.
The 911 was able to take some of the more open corners tighter than the other cars I've autocrossed, but it wasn't particularly fun, and it wasn't enough to make the C2S level 911s competitive with the more balanced cars. An Elise will eat your lunch, whether you have a C2S or a C4S.
it takes quite some time to get to the level to start feeling 997 dynamics and sense how to work its weight transfer and to what level pre-load shocks in what corner.
but I think it is not all that bad. generic power steering in sweepers works just fine with 997, it is just it all is a bit, well, different from a car with front weight bias. it is a power car and power should be used all the time, front should always be pre-loaded entering a corner until you go on gas and a bitch is to master that brake-gas transition smoothness so you do not upset that fine edge of a grip and spin out. when you master 997 to slide at 10/10th all the way you want it where you want it - it is a pretty fast car.
i responded on a 997 forum, to OP my advice was to look for 996 gt3 car if he want to do SCCA or serious AX sport, 997.1 car compared to his 's' croc is probably not a best bet.
but I think it is not all that bad. generic power steering in sweepers works just fine with 997, it is just it all is a bit, well, different from a car with front weight bias. it is a power car and power should be used all the time, front should always be pre-loaded entering a corner until you go on gas and a bitch is to master that brake-gas transition smoothness so you do not upset that fine edge of a grip and spin out. when you master 997 to slide at 10/10th all the way you want it where you want it - it is a pretty fast car.
i responded on a 997 forum, to OP my advice was to look for 996 gt3 car if he want to do SCCA or serious AX sport, 997.1 car compared to his 's' croc is probably not a best bet.
Winner winner Chicken Dinner!!!
If you are not autocrossing a 911 with your right foot then you are not going fast.
03-29-2011, 07:48 PM
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No. I don't turn off ABS. Instead, I use it as a tool. Believe it or not, it can be done, it just requires different behavior from driving without ABS.
For the record, the time I went backward through the timing lights was in the Miata. I'd made a mistake on the course that caused overrotation followed by a tankslapper that ended with the car facing backward, just past the timing lights. The Miata is the car I campaigned nationally, and I have my share of trophies in it. Neither the C2S Cab nor the GT3 RS would be competitive on a national level (without modifying the GT3 RS).
Porrsha, which cars have you run nationally, and in which classes?
For the record, the time I went backward through the timing lights was in the Miata. I'd made a mistake on the course that caused overrotation followed by a tankslapper that ended with the car facing backward, just past the timing lights. The Miata is the car I campaigned nationally, and I have my share of trophies in it. Neither the C2S Cab nor the GT3 RS would be competitive on a national level (without modifying the GT3 RS).
Porrsha, which cars have you run nationally, and in which classes?
04-02-2011, 10:45 PM
#21
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No. I don't turn off ABS. Instead, I use it as a tool. Believe it or not, it can be done, it just requires different behavior from driving without ABS.
For the record, the time I went backward through the timing lights was in the Miata. I'd made a mistake on the course that caused overrotation followed by a tankslapper that ended with the car facing backward, just past the timing lights. The Miata is the car I campaigned nationally, and I have my share of trophies in it. Neither the C2S Cab nor the GT3 RS would be competitive on a national level (without modifying the GT3 RS).
Porrsha, which cars have you run nationally, and in which classes?
For the record, the time I went backward through the timing lights was in the Miata. I'd made a mistake on the course that caused overrotation followed by a tankslapper that ended with the car facing backward, just past the timing lights. The Miata is the car I campaigned nationally, and I have my share of trophies in it. Neither the C2S Cab nor the GT3 RS would be competitive on a national level (without modifying the GT3 RS).
Porrsha, which cars have you run nationally, and in which classes?
04-03-2011, 12:45 AM
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Quick summary: at local levels, sure, the C4S is fine.
At the risk of getting in the middle of a 'who's more experienced' discussion, and also repeating some of what I wrote on the 997 thread, here are a few comments. These are all in my opinion. I'm no Andy Hollis. If you want his opinion, you should ask him -- I'm sure he's driven multiples of just about every 911 model (including a GT2), and he knows autocrossing rather well.
So the appropriate people know to to ignore my comments, I've autocrossed an unprepped stock '96 Miata, a street prepared '04 STi, and an unprepped stock '04 996 C4S, with the latter for only 7 runs. I've done events in 5 regions, taken top event pax 18 times, and got my behind handed to me at a ProSolo (fortunately by that year's national champion, in a much better prepped car).
It wasn't clear to me what the OP was asking relative to. SCCA Nationals with a chance at a title? PCA show and shine with associated 'auto cross dryving event'? The myriad of levels between? Does a difference of 0.2s per 60s (to pick a number out of the air) qualify as competitive? At local events that's in the noise, while for nationals that's a lot. Who's in your class? Are they a national champ/contender? Local hotshoe? Bunch of duffers? Just you?
Lots of people seem to be answering a question that wasn't asked: is any 997 C2S or C4S competitive at SCCA Nationals? I think the general answer seems to be 'the Cayman S, Elise, and a few others are better, so no' and 'at nationals RWD > AWD for 911's if all other things are equal'. The thread has also gone off onto a 'is any 911 any good / fun to autocross?' tangent.
I've autocrossed unprepped 1969, 1995, and 2004 911's, and the 996 C4S was by far the best one for me. The '69 was relatively neutral, but down on power and not that much fun to drive. Overall times weren't too bad, though the owner had put it in FP. The 993 was like all the classic stories -- it'd never let me forget that big engine way in the back with all the associated momentum. The 996 C4S was much more like my STi. Lots of power, lots of weight (relative to a Miata), but no bad behavior even when the driver did stuff like lift mid-corner (that is, no worse than I'd expect from any car). I'd read this thread before autocrossing it and was prepared for the worst, and for a couple runs I had a 964 owner as a passenger giving me a stream of 'how to drive a hellish handling 911' commentary. Neither one was remotely like what it was like to drive it, which was instead lots of fun with reasonable handling.
When comparing C2S and C4S you've got to consider the surface of the events you care about, as well as the driver skill. Our events are often on slick asphalt and we get a decent amount of rain, so AWD can be helpful overall even though on dry grippy events you're just dragging extra weight around. I think AWD can be helpful for mid-pack drivers, enabling you to get closer to the car's potential quicker. A completely useless argument for SCCA Nationals where discussions like this assume drivers capable of getting most out of the car even if it's quirky, difficult, requires wonky alignment settings, and so on. But helpful for lots of people with limited seat time.
Anyway, I think for non-national events a C4S would be fine for autocrossing. You might need a smidgeon more driving skill to beat your competitor with an equally optioned C2S on dry, grippy events. I'd be more concerned with things like competitors with X-51 power options, PDK, PCCB, JRZ / Moton / Penske shocks, fresh V710/A6's for every event, time to go to multiple Evo schools each year, 996 GT3s with all the trimmings, and so on. That's not even considering the Elise, Tesla Sport, Cayman S, etc.
At the risk of getting in the middle of a 'who's more experienced' discussion, and also repeating some of what I wrote on the 997 thread, here are a few comments. These are all in my opinion. I'm no Andy Hollis. If you want his opinion, you should ask him -- I'm sure he's driven multiples of just about every 911 model (including a GT2), and he knows autocrossing rather well.
So the appropriate people know to to ignore my comments, I've autocrossed an unprepped stock '96 Miata, a street prepared '04 STi, and an unprepped stock '04 996 C4S, with the latter for only 7 runs. I've done events in 5 regions, taken top event pax 18 times, and got my behind handed to me at a ProSolo (fortunately by that year's national champion, in a much better prepped car).
It wasn't clear to me what the OP was asking relative to. SCCA Nationals with a chance at a title? PCA show and shine with associated 'auto cross dryving event'? The myriad of levels between? Does a difference of 0.2s per 60s (to pick a number out of the air) qualify as competitive? At local events that's in the noise, while for nationals that's a lot. Who's in your class? Are they a national champ/contender? Local hotshoe? Bunch of duffers? Just you?
Lots of people seem to be answering a question that wasn't asked: is any 997 C2S or C4S competitive at SCCA Nationals? I think the general answer seems to be 'the Cayman S, Elise, and a few others are better, so no' and 'at nationals RWD > AWD for 911's if all other things are equal'. The thread has also gone off onto a 'is any 911 any good / fun to autocross?' tangent.
I've autocrossed unprepped 1969, 1995, and 2004 911's, and the 996 C4S was by far the best one for me. The '69 was relatively neutral, but down on power and not that much fun to drive. Overall times weren't too bad, though the owner had put it in FP. The 993 was like all the classic stories -- it'd never let me forget that big engine way in the back with all the associated momentum. The 996 C4S was much more like my STi. Lots of power, lots of weight (relative to a Miata), but no bad behavior even when the driver did stuff like lift mid-corner (that is, no worse than I'd expect from any car). I'd read this thread before autocrossing it and was prepared for the worst, and for a couple runs I had a 964 owner as a passenger giving me a stream of 'how to drive a hellish handling 911' commentary. Neither one was remotely like what it was like to drive it, which was instead lots of fun with reasonable handling.
When comparing C2S and C4S you've got to consider the surface of the events you care about, as well as the driver skill. Our events are often on slick asphalt and we get a decent amount of rain, so AWD can be helpful overall even though on dry grippy events you're just dragging extra weight around. I think AWD can be helpful for mid-pack drivers, enabling you to get closer to the car's potential quicker. A completely useless argument for SCCA Nationals where discussions like this assume drivers capable of getting most out of the car even if it's quirky, difficult, requires wonky alignment settings, and so on. But helpful for lots of people with limited seat time.
Anyway, I think for non-national events a C4S would be fine for autocrossing. You might need a smidgeon more driving skill to beat your competitor with an equally optioned C2S on dry, grippy events. I'd be more concerned with things like competitors with X-51 power options, PDK, PCCB, JRZ / Moton / Penske shocks, fresh V710/A6's for every event, time to go to multiple Evo schools each year, 996 GT3s with all the trimmings, and so on. That's not even considering the Elise, Tesla Sport, Cayman S, etc.
04-04-2011, 10:34 AM
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I ran a 1972 Lotus 7 S4 for many years and took 2nd in the Divisionals twice for SCCA. I also ran a 1972 Porsche 911 T in A/S for years and finished 3rd at the Lake Placid Parade, terry Zaccone was first (as usual). I have also finished in the top 3 several times at divisionals with that car. Why?
It wasn't clear to me what the OP was asking relative to. SCCA Nationals with a chance at a title? PCA show and shine with associated 'auto cross dryving event'? The myriad of levels between? Does a difference of 0.2s per 60s (to pick a number out of the air) qualify as competitive? At local events that's in the noise, while for nationals that's a lot. Who's in your class? Are they a national champ/contender? Local hotshoe? Bunch of duffers? Just you?
While this is a tangent that wasn't asked about, it is one that I think is important if rjkjlk4576 is planning to use the car for autocrossing regularly. And it's one people don't always think to consider. What makes a car fun to autocross depends on the driver preferences and the driver's intentions. A car that's not fun on course but is competitive in it's class may be fun for someone with a significant competitive streak. A car that's not competitive may be fun because it has all the right driving behaviors… or all the wrong driving behaviors, and those are things that particular driver likes.
04-18-2011, 10:20 PM
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I finally found the car it's a 2011 C2S and I feel very fortunate to have one. I'll be broke for awhile, but happy. I will pick up the car Wednesday and if it rains it will be Thursday. My next question is do I read the manual for the break in procedure or do some members have other recommendations. Also do the 2011's have the same oil consumption issue as the 2009's? Also does anyone have any alignment settings for autocrossing? Thanks for the help.
04-20-2011, 10:56 PM
#25
I finally found the car it's a 2011 C2S and I feel very fortunate to have one. I'll be broke for awhile, but happy. I will pick up the car Wednesday and if it rains it will be Thursday. My next question is do I read the manual for the break in procedure or do some members have other recommendations. Also do the 2011's have the same oil consumption issue as the 2009's? Also does anyone have any alignment settings for autocrossing? Thanks for the help.
For alignment, it depends if you have P17 lowered suspension and whats most important to you. DD street wear? Autox agility? DE stability?
05-25-2011, 11:00 PM
#26
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I have a related question to this thread. My dad has been looking at several different cars to buy next and has been autocrossing pretty regularly with me. We have looked at several different cars, but when I convinced him to drive a porsche he has liked most.
So the question is how would a first gen non S cayman do in BS. The plan isn't nationals, but at least have a competitive car for local events. I test drove a 2007 cayman with him and not being able to go to the limits I thought that it would be a good match for the s2000, but not sure how much it looses from the lack of the LSD. Any experience with those on the autocross course against the s2000?
We also drove a 996 C4S and he liked that one a lot, but I felt that the AWD was just preventing the car from rotating like you would want it to during autocross. Obviously hard to really determine from a test drive. The 997s were pretty nice, but based on classing would probably not be competitive and can't seem to find LSD on them anywhere. Both the 996 and the 997 have the downside of the IMS potential.
My opinion would be the 996 GT3 is the way to go, but hes more interested in something that is also a reasonably comfortable daily driver too. He is also interested in probably running it in the tire index class that we do in the region.
Any info or suggestions is appreciated.
So the question is how would a first gen non S cayman do in BS. The plan isn't nationals, but at least have a competitive car for local events. I test drove a 2007 cayman with him and not being able to go to the limits I thought that it would be a good match for the s2000, but not sure how much it looses from the lack of the LSD. Any experience with those on the autocross course against the s2000?
We also drove a 996 C4S and he liked that one a lot, but I felt that the AWD was just preventing the car from rotating like you would want it to during autocross. Obviously hard to really determine from a test drive. The 997s were pretty nice, but based on classing would probably not be competitive and can't seem to find LSD on them anywhere. Both the 996 and the 997 have the downside of the IMS potential.
My opinion would be the 996 GT3 is the way to go, but hes more interested in something that is also a reasonably comfortable daily driver too. He is also interested in probably running it in the tire index class that we do in the region.
Any info or suggestions is appreciated.
05-26-2011, 10:50 AM
#27
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996 gt3 is the best way to go, i do not know if you can get better bang per buck from any other car now, if you`ll find one for $45K or so price with decent engine - it will be a great car.
05-26-2011, 02:30 PM
#28
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Now that I've spent more time autocrossing my C4S and spent some time looking for parts for it, I think I agree with utkinpol -- 996 GT3 is the way to go if you're thinking 911s. $45k seems ambitious, but I've seen a few in the mid 50s. You get a ton of go-fast parts already on the car and you get a car that's at least not out of the hunt nationally in stock class. Sounds to me like you could slap on some decent tires, get a good alignment (good autocross settings available in a thread on RL), and have an extremely competitive car without a single other change needed. Everyone has different opinions on the daily drivability however.
Next in the 911 range I think would be a 40th AE which should be quite good for AS. It seems to have a lot of nice autocross stuff on the car stock, including the important LSD. Price I think is on par with a similar year C4S.
While I love the C4S for a lot of reasons shared by many others (looks, options, great daily driver), one problem for autocrossing is that while it shares the majority of the rear suspension with the rest of the models, it and the turbo have a unique front suspension. Koni yellows don't fit without a bunch of extra work, for example. Nor do the normal front swaybars fit -- you need models made for the C4S and Turbo. Now if I went to SP I could do PSS10s which Bilstein does make specifically for the C4S, but that's another story. As is the SCCA committee member's strange insistence that nobody running AS or SS wants to use street tires, so no ST class for us.
If you're doing just local events, I still think all these cars have a decent chance unless you have national contenders in the class you end up in. Completely stock 2004 C4S on Yokohama AD08s came out 9th in PAX at our last local event, 4th if you include a 0.975 street tire multiplier -- in front of one SCCA national winner and behind 2 national trophy winners and a prosolo tour winner. I have no doubt I'd get smoked at a tour that had real AS drivers show up however -- the C4S isn't the car to have nor am I a national level driver. My suggestion: car you like, tires, alignment, seat time, and an Evolution school or two.
Next in the 911 range I think would be a 40th AE which should be quite good for AS. It seems to have a lot of nice autocross stuff on the car stock, including the important LSD. Price I think is on par with a similar year C4S.
While I love the C4S for a lot of reasons shared by many others (looks, options, great daily driver), one problem for autocrossing is that while it shares the majority of the rear suspension with the rest of the models, it and the turbo have a unique front suspension. Koni yellows don't fit without a bunch of extra work, for example. Nor do the normal front swaybars fit -- you need models made for the C4S and Turbo. Now if I went to SP I could do PSS10s which Bilstein does make specifically for the C4S, but that's another story. As is the SCCA committee member's strange insistence that nobody running AS or SS wants to use street tires, so no ST class for us.
If you're doing just local events, I still think all these cars have a decent chance unless you have national contenders in the class you end up in. Completely stock 2004 C4S on Yokohama AD08s came out 9th in PAX at our last local event, 4th if you include a 0.975 street tire multiplier -- in front of one SCCA national winner and behind 2 national trophy winners and a prosolo tour winner. I have no doubt I'd get smoked at a tour that had real AS drivers show up however -- the C4S isn't the car to have nor am I a national level driver. My suggestion: car you like, tires, alignment, seat time, and an Evolution school or two.
05-26-2011, 11:33 PM
#29
We have looked at several different cars, but when I convinced him to drive a porsche he has liked most.
So the question is how would a first gen non S cayman do in BS. The plan isn't nationals, but at least have a competitive car for local events. I test drove a 2007 cayman with him and not being able to go to the limits I thought that it would be a good match for the s2000, but not sure how much it looses from the lack of the LSD. Any experience with those on the autocross course against the s2000?
We also drove a 996 C4S and he liked that one a lot, but I felt that the AWD was just preventing the car from rotating like you would want it to during autocross. Obviously hard to really determine from a test drive. The 997s were pretty nice, but based on classing would probably not be competitive and can't seem to find LSD on them anywhere. Both the 996 and the 997 have the downside of the IMS potential.
My opinion would be the 996 GT3 is the way to go, but hes more interested in something that is also a reasonably comfortable daily driver too. He is also interested in probably running it in the tire index class that we do in the region.
Any info or suggestions is appreciated.
So the question is how would a first gen non S cayman do in BS. The plan isn't nationals, but at least have a competitive car for local events. I test drove a 2007 cayman with him and not being able to go to the limits I thought that it would be a good match for the s2000, but not sure how much it looses from the lack of the LSD. Any experience with those on the autocross course against the s2000?
We also drove a 996 C4S and he liked that one a lot, but I felt that the AWD was just preventing the car from rotating like you would want it to during autocross. Obviously hard to really determine from a test drive. The 997s were pretty nice, but based on classing would probably not be competitive and can't seem to find LSD on them anywhere. Both the 996 and the 997 have the downside of the IMS potential.
My opinion would be the 996 GT3 is the way to go, but hes more interested in something that is also a reasonably comfortable daily driver too. He is also interested in probably running it in the tire index class that we do in the region.
Any info or suggestions is appreciated.
If your dad is looking for a porsche that's competitive regionally in scca stock, he'd probly be happy with any of the following:
SS: 996 GT3, 997 C2S w/ x51, lsd, p17
AS: 996 40th, 1999 996 w/ lsd, Cayman S w/ PASM, Chrono
CS: mk1 Boxster
i don't think the 996 gt3 is the only porsche car that is competitive or fun to autox.
if your dad runs a street tire index, the camber limitations of the boxster, cayman, 996 non gt3 are less important.
05-26-2011, 11:57 PM
#30
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The base Cayman would get killed in BS. heavier, camber challenged, no lsd.
If your dad is looking for a porsche that's competitive regionally in scca stock, he'd probly be happy with any of the following:
SS: 996 GT3, 997 C2S w/ x51, lsd, p17
AS: 996 40th, 1999 996 w/ lsd, Cayman S w/ PASM, Chrono
CS: mk1 Boxster
i don't think the 996 gt3 is the only porsche car that is competitive or fun to autox.
if your dad runs a street tire index, the camber limitations of the boxster, cayman, 996 non gt3 are less important.
If your dad is looking for a porsche that's competitive regionally in scca stock, he'd probly be happy with any of the following:
SS: 996 GT3, 997 C2S w/ x51, lsd, p17
AS: 996 40th, 1999 996 w/ lsd, Cayman S w/ PASM, Chrono
CS: mk1 Boxster
i don't think the 996 gt3 is the only porsche car that is competitive or fun to autox.
if your dad runs a street tire index, the camber limitations of the boxster, cayman, 996 non gt3 are less important.
Used Cayman S are hard to find, does the PASM do a good job emulating a LSD?
The 40th 996 would certainly be an interesting one to find. I did not realize it had the LSD to start with. I think the GT3 is probably too extreme for my dad although I would certainly like one.