Yomi

Stock camber limitations are a very common limiter and the SCCA knows that contains performance for a lot of cars in stock class. I think many cars get maybe -1 degree stock. The GT3 is one exception and can get close to -3 stock because of two-position top mounts and a fancy lower control arm with eccentric and factory-specced shims to adjust camber. My 911 maxed out at -0.3 / -0.6 front (horrible) and -1.7 even in back. From another thread, knfeparty got -0.7 front and -2.2 rear on his 40th AE and balefire got -0.4 / -1.0 front, -1.5 rear. I'm not sure these rear settings are entirely maxed out, but I think from reading the threads we're pretty happy with the rear settings given the limitations on the front (nowhere near as much as we'd like -- I ran -3.3 on my STi which gave pretty even pyrometer readings, but still had to shuffle and flip tires to save the outside shoulders).

I don't know Boxsters and Caymans very well, but from some googling it looks like they're in the -1 range like other sports cars I'm familiar with (Miata, STi, 911 are all in the "-1 if you're lucky" range stock, I think the RX-8 is another exception). All the fun stuff to get more camber isn't legal in stock: lowering, lengthening the strut slots, eccentric bolts, camber plates, GT3 lower control arms. If your caster is out of range like mine is you can get a replacement LCA with an eccentric adjustment but I believe this only changes caster -- it's different (but just as ungodly expensive) from the GT3 one that allows caster adjustment and oodles of camber adjustment. I don't know if eccentric bolts are legal or not -- I don't have a FSM, so I have to assume they're not (and am not sure if the 996's will be affected by the SCCA June crash bolt proposal or not).

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Yeah that is pretty sad on the camber side of things. There was a 996 GT3 on the lot at one of the dealers and when I saw all the camber on that I just assumed it was within range. Perhaps 1 sec behind would be ok. Right now hes been running a base RSX in HS tire index. That does well in the tire index just because the lower power cars always do well there (we run a whole separate class on tire cars paxed together). I did look around and there are quite a few 40th 996s out there for sale and some at reasonable prices, but nothing close by.

I guess hes just gotta make a decision buy something fun and deal with where it is, or search harder for one of the competitive options.

On a side note, does anyone know with the Cayman R will go? I would hope that it would still be allowed in SS and it might stand a chance there just from weight. Although the one I saw didn't look like it was running GT3 like camber.

All the cars I have test driven with him I was quite impressed with, except for the first gen boxster. They all have such a good driver experience from many different aspects, but Porsche is really far behind on the easy things that dont cost that much. I have a MX-5 that MSRP 24k and its got aluminum hood, aluminum trunk, LSD, adjustable camber and caster (I got -2.4 and 7.8 out of it with lowered). I don't understand why all that isn't standard across all their cars. That would make it a lot more appealing to pick up base models and wouldn't add much to the bottom line. He decided to sell his car himself because the dealer seems to be undercutting what they are going for by 4k, so there is some time to look around for the specific ones that work well.

Yomi

I know what you mean with tire index. Right now our region doesn't run anything like that other than the "Tuner" class which is a run-what-you-brung-on-street-tires class. It's huge, but it's for drag racers, JDM-types, and the like, so not really a place I feel I want to run my stock Porsche. Reno runs a handicap system where cars in stock and street prepared can run with street tires and multiply their raw times by 0.975 for all further calculations -- so you stay in your class, just add a handicap. I like that one personally. Alternately like your region is doing and some people here like is to do a separate class, but you're right that some cars are helped by that more than others. Nothing is perfect, even changing all of stock to street tires has lots of gotchas.

Here's a handy reference for classes: Moutons stock classes. However, for the 2012 Cayman R you need the June FasTrack where it indicates it is in SS. I don't know if there is anything missing vs. the S, but the LSD would seem to be a huge bonus for autocross, ~120 pounds lighter is great, and the tiny bit of extra power and 200 more rpm couldn't hurt. If you like it and can afford it, it sounds great to me. Can it beat a 996 GT3? Not a clue, but I personally wouldn't bet money on it (admittedly I wouldn't bet anything the other way either).

Once you start modifying the suspension, you can usually get plenty of camber -- lowered plus camber plates is enough for most people. But I agree that Miatas are awfully nice and soooo cheap compared to Porsches. You could always look into a nice used supercharged / turbocharged Miata, which while it'll be uncompetitive at the autocross, will probably cost ~$10k or less, be way cheaper on tires, be relatively cheap to do any suspension work you want, and be a hoot to drive. Or go for one of the 5+ classes the Miata is competitive in (CS, ES, CSP, STS, STR) where again both the car, prep, and running costs are dirt cheap compared to a 911 (a local decently-prepped STR Miata just sold for $6500 here including three sets of wheels).

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I was pretty excited when they added the STR class. Thats what im prepped for right now, but I've spent more than 6500 prepping it not including the cost of the car... He really likes mine, but not really interested in going down the same path since I have spent countless hours and $$$ that add no value to the car getting it setup. So a fun car that's good for a stock class fits the bill better. The newer miatas would be frustrating in CS. The stock suspension on my car was awful when I put good tires one.

My dad actually isn't all that interested in power so I figured the cayman R might have a good fun factor. If you want power that's what they have corvettes for. He was hoping to really have something to drive year round but there is still an extra vehicle if it snows much. To me the miata is not a good daily driver since its pretty loud and relatively uncomfortable for a tall person. Porsche really wins when it comes to a car that drives great but is still pretty comfortable and it helps that they are built for taller people.

I was thinking that the 996 C4/C4S would be ok for our tire index because AWD always helps there. Or just try to find a 40th one which would do well with slicks, but on either of those it just seems worthwhile to do the IMS retrofit if its being kept for a while for peace of mind.

balefire

In SS, I'm pretty sure the Cayman R will get beat by the much more powerful and more cambered 996 gt3. Not to mention the Cayman R is not as comfortable a DD as a Cayman S, and costs close to MSRP.

Since you aren't excited about a boxster, a 996 40th or a Cayman S w/ PASM and Chrono might fit your dad. If you really want a Cayman, its worth looking for PASM (lower, stiffer springs) and Chrono (rev limiter, throttle remap).
http://www.sccaforums.com/forums/for...50/scope/posts

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Thanks for the link that is pretty helpful. I suppose either of those prime AS options would make a good daily driver too, so perhaps its best to focus on cars that meet those. The other upside is they are a reasonable price on the used market. I would think that the 40th 996 would be better, but perhaps more difficult to drive well.

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Oh I saw the mention of no good shock options for the cayman or 911 in there. Since Bilstein make the damptronic thing do they have just a normal shock body sized for those cars? The suspension I am running is from Fat Cat and he custom added adjustable valving to standard Bilsteins. I'm sure the process could be done if standard Bilstein HDs fit on the car. It took a long time for everything to get sorted out and its not cheap, but might be a good option if the P cars are limited. Just a suggestion.

balefire

the sccaforums thread only addresses the 987.
there are no OTS shocks for the 987 PASM.
there are bilstein OTS for 987 non PASM.
custom damptronics or koni DAs are possible for a 987 PASM, but costly

for the 996,
bilstein OTS and koni yellows SA are available for 996 NB
bilstein OTS are available for 996 WB.

i'm running OTS koni yellow SA on my 996 40th.
Yomi found out that the koni yellows only fit the rear of a 996 WB.

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Oh ok, Koni Yellow SAs are plenty good and never too expensive. All the more reason to get a 40th 996 right? There are Koni dealers out there that will custom valve those too. Still, probably could be taken into DA, but perhaps not worth the cost.

Yomi

If you're considering a Boxster, you may want to read the Are Boxsters properly classed thread on sccaforums. I have no personal insight into this, and I don't know how many people agree with sjfehr on this, but it does give some idea of how he thinks they're classed. Reading the two posts indicates he's heard the competitive Boxsters would be the 2011 Spyder in SS, 2000-2004 Boxster S in BS, and 1997-2004 Boxster non-S in CS. The one reply from a Boxster owner indicates that even the first two are questionable.

Not a lot of variety in SS at the national level from a quick perusal -- Corvettes and Elises, with some GT3's thrown in at some events. SS also has quite a bit of depth in top drivers. AS looks like it's been getting smaller and smaller, with Corvettes and Cayman S's mostly. Even with a slightly harder PAX, perusing the national tour results it looks like the last time an AS car beat the top BS car was the 2009 finals. It could be that BS is actually faster and the PAX hasn't caught up (a slight issue in indexed classes) or AS isn't attracting the elite car/driver combos that SS and BS are (opportunity?). BS looks like a S2000 playground. The two Boxster S's that showed up at San Diego finished over 7 seconds behind the lead S2000. The other BS cars seem to be McHugh+Corvette and the Solstice GXP. The fastest BS Boxster at 2010 nationals came in 31st place., which doesn't inspire huge confidence. Heck, the fastest AS car -- a 2007 Cayman S -- would have been 18th and out of the BS trophies.

That last paragraph is all speculation. In autocross we often don't know if it's because someone hasn't taken a chance with the car, hasn't picked just the right year/model, hasn't prepped the car enough, hasn't prepped it right, hasn't had a good driver in it, hasn't been driven right by a good driver, or just plain has had bad luck at the big events. Comparing between classes is also iffy since the run conditions may not be identical (e.g. the soaking wet to drying conditions at the latest tour first day).

I still think that unless your local class has someone finishing in the top PAX third or so at national events, you should be able to be competitive with most of these cars. Obviously it helps to have one of the top cars to start with, if you have that option.

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Well now that you mention it we do have someone in our region who is rather competitive in an AS C5 vette. He typically gets a very good PAX in that car. So its doubtful that my dad would be beating him, but in a well prepped competitor against a good driver is always fun and forces you to get better.

We are pretty bare on the BS competition. My dad nor I were a fan of the Boxster in general and he was more interested in the base Cayman for BS. It looks like there are barely any base first gen base Caymans that run SCCA so its hard to say it wouldn't stand a chance. There just happen to be lots of well prepped s2000s since they are so cheap to get into.

Still not sure what route he will decide. This has been good info on all the cars and to me I would lean 40th edition just to get that LSD, and buying something for more would just seem dumb not to get a 996 GT3. He just has to decide on the trade off of autocross competitive versus what he wants.


Along with the Boxster classing topic, it doesn't make sense that 997.1 S and non S and 997.2 non S are not allowed in AS. If the 40th 996 has 345 hp and a LSD in there all those cars would be appropriate. They really drove most of the top drivers away from AS and wonder if there will be another reshuffle in the near future. For now I keep hearing that ruled out. Sometimes the SCCA does some really stupid stuff (like me not being able to put a roll bar that goes above my head in).

Yomi

I think the 40th AE sounds like the ticket for optimizing car and competition. 996 GT3 would be great, but a lot of people would likely find it too harsh / inconvenient for DD (plenty would also disagree I'm sure). The 06-08 Cayman S looks reasonably competitive for AS and they sure are pretty cars, or the 09+ Cayman non-S with PASM, LSD, and Sport Chrono Plus (and PDK?). I'd be more than happy with any of them .

You make a good point on the S2000 -- cheap, plentiful, known to be a winner, and plenty of info out there on how to set it up. I'm thinking BS or SS without a GT3 is going to hurt in a Porsche currently, though you can have plenty of fun and locally do fine (noting that "15th in class at nationals" probably equates to "top 5 PAX spot" at many regions, just because you get top drivers from a hundred regions combined there).

MechanicalEng

I run an S2000 in STR, I think is the car to have for that class... and as you said its cheap, realible, light, and easy to work on...

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Well I run a NC miata in STR and its cheaper, lighter, and reliable and easy to work on as well. Still hard to say which one will be better. S2000 is still heavily in the picture for him, but it would be for BS as he doesn't want to go all out for STR like I have. Porsche just makes a better overall compromise car because it is comfortable and it actually makes power below 5k rpm.

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So, my dad has been looking more and definately likes the option of the 40th 996, but one of the questions I have is the wheel sizes. Since, the 40th was a set package, were there actually any options in the wheels? The 911 is nice with wheels since so many different options are available from factory that you could normally pick from within the rules. With the 40th are you stuck to the 18X8s and 18X10s? Or can you go to the wider 9s and 11s?

Thanks. This has been helpful so far. Now just finding a good used car out there is the hard part. Some people are listing them quite high.