porrsha

From the October SCCA fastrackL:
from the August SCCA fastrack:

sjfehr

Can't believe they have S2000 and Z4 in there, but specifically exclude the Boxster. Bull****, I tell ya. STR looks like a damned fun class to be in.

Mike Buck

Word I heard was that the Boxster was excluded because they felt it would dominate and classes don't survive when a Porsche is the car to have . . .

sjfehr

They said that, and then proceeded to bump the 986 down to CS because it supposedly is too slow to be competitive vs S2000, Z4, etc. Makes no sense whatsoever to allow the S2000 but not the other cars.

PedalFaster

The fact that the S2000's faster in Stock prep doesn't mean it'll be faster in STR prep. The Boxster will benefit much more from STR suspension mods than the S2000 will because its front camber is so limited in stock form. Also, the Boxster's mid-engined, and thus will be better able to make use of street tires' limited traction than the S2000.

sjfehr

Good point with the front camber. Too bad Porsche didn't allow greater range of adjustibility from the factory. They had to have known, why didn't they make the slot another inch wider?

S2000s are mid-engined as well; the engine sits behind the front axle. If I recall, weight distribution of the S2000 is even closer to 50/50 than for the Boxster. Either way, those mods are allowed on the Boxster in BSP, which doesn't have Boxsters running away with the trophy every year. I just don't see the limited STR mods creating a Porsche domination. Especially not with the non-S 986.

PedalFaster

S2000s handle like the front-engined cars that they are even though the engine's technically between the axles. The commonly accepted definition of "mid-engined" is a car with the engine behind the driver but forward of the rear axle, which results in a rear-heavy weight distribution, allowing better traction coming off of corners than a 50/50 front-engined car has.

Giant R-compound tires are allowed in BSP, so those cars aren't traction limited like all ST cars are. The challenges of making a car go fast on (relatively) skinny street tires are pretty different than those of making one go fast on fat R-compound tires. The S2000's going to have a lot of trouble putting down power coming out of corners, which is why a lot of smart people think the NC Miata's going to be faster in STR trim despite its power deficit. The Boxster would be better able to leverage its power advantage over the Miata than the S2000 because it's mid-engined.

porrsha

Any thoughts on the spec tire dejour to invest in? Rim size?

When you go to a Linsey racing type of adjustment for the front suspension you find your car in Street Prepared and out of a stock class. The STR class allows for the adjustment but evens things out with tires.

PedalFaster

I don't follow the ST classes closely, so I have no idea on the tire of the week, but a good place to start researching is always last year's Nationals results.

Likewise, I don't have insight into rim sizes other than to say the S2000 guys are all looking to run the maximum rim allowed. Grip trumps all in an autocross environment.

sjfehr

I think nats was a bit biased by contingency. Dunlop and Kuhmo are generally considered top-end ST tires and frequently come up as the recommended tires on the SCCA forums and various tire reviews, but were highly under-represented at nats.

A lot depends on driving style and driving conditions. Dunlops like it cold and give awesome grip on the first run; Kuhmos like it hot and need to be warmed up for max grip. I ran Dunlops all this season in the street tire classes at two local clubs, and wore them out. Unless someone comes out with a new grippy tire this winter, or I get a set of wheels and r-comps for christmas, I'll probably get another fresh set of Star Specs for next season.

Mike Buck

That said, older Boxsters are plentiful and cheap.

It wasn't that it was excluded, but rather the way it was explained that irked me. Seems the SCCA is ok with one car dominating a class, but is not ok with the dominating car being a Porsche. Even if is a cheap and common one. Whole perception issue I guess.

PedalFaster

It doesn't just seem that way -- it has been explicitly stated that it *is* that way. It isn't irksome when you look at it from their perspective, though.

For some reason, Porsches have never been popular in SCCA autocross. Owners of popular sports cars have turned out in droves despite the perception of being classed unfavorably; for example, people initially thought the Elise was doomed in SS, yet many showed up, and people likewise thought the S2000 was doomed when it was moved to AS, yet they kept showing up as well. In contrast, Porsche owners haven't turned out even when they've been classed favorably.

Let's look at this year's Nationals as an example. The GT3 was arguably the car to have in SS, the 993, 986S, and 987 were all at least trophy-capable in AS, the 968 was at least trophy-capable in BS (I think it was the best car in the class), and the 924 and 944 were obviously trophy-capable in ES given that they finished second and third. Despite all of those classes in which Porsches could run competitively, and the fact that the 924 and 944 in particular are very cheap and common, only 22 drivers opted to run Porsches in Stock at Nationals this year. By way of contrast, 16 drivers ran Elises in SS and SSL alone even though they're as or more expensive than all but one of the cars in the list above.

There's a lot of speculation about why this is the case. My theory, based on what I've seen on forums, is that people are afraid of the cost of maintaining Porsches. Even if the acquisition cost is cheap, they've heard enough stories about $300 oil changes, exploding motors, and exorbitant parts costs to discourage them, despite the fact that most of those stories are overblown or outright incorrect. Others think that the fact that there's a healthy Porsche-specific club with a nationwide presence causes Porsche owners stick with the PCA instead of the SCCA.

Whatever the reason, Porsche attendance has been minimal. That being the case, if you were the SCCA, which option would make more sense to you?

• Risk a Porsche becoming the dominant car in its class in order to attract the Porsche contingent, which has never before been seen in quantity at SCCA events. In the process, disenfranchise the owners of demonstrably popular cars like the Corvette, Miata, and S2000, who have shown no previous inclination to switch marques to Porsche.

• Class Porsches conservatively in order to keep the owners of demonstrably popular cars happy. In the process, make SCCA events less attractive to the Porsche contingent, which has never before been seen in quantity at SCCA events anyway.

The SCCA has little incentive to classify Porsches favorably, so it generally opts for the second option. Understood that this is somewhat of a vicious cycle, but it's one that makes sense given history. Keep in mind also that Porsches are generally classed competitively, and some are even overdogs -- there's just more attention paid when they could potentially be class killers.

One more point -- I imagine the STAC felt little need to make the 986 a potential STR overdog when the SAC just made it a potential CS overdog.

Mike Buck

I see your points. I don't pretend to understand the STAC or SAC. I've gotten back into the autox scene since meeting my gf. Traveled to many a Tour and Pro with her. From what I have seen, if there is a dominant car, people will flock to it. Doesn't matter what it is, as long as not too much $$. GT3 has just been too much $$ compared to a Z06 or Lotus until very very recently. I agree they can win, but the formula may not be as simple as with a Z06 . . .

For years, Porsches were excluded from ST classes. Then this new STR comes around and Porsches are in, but just a few models. They should have just continued the no Porsche rule . . . KISS.

EBacon

So what kind of prep would one put into the 911 for STR?

I've never competed in the ST classes before and until I discovered the Autocross forum here on Rennlist I had no idea this new (provisional) class existed. I could get very excited about having an older 911 if I could drive to events on competition tires!!

Love to hear your thoughts!

Cheers,
Liz

porrsha

What have you done to your 3.2 911 so far?