porrsha

The rules are online:
http://www.scca.com/documents/Solo_R...inal_draft.pdf

utkinpol

I saw it several times explained for upper mounts and camber plates - but what about front/rear LCAs? Does it also work in same way? What about replacement of stock springs with coilovers?
Where goes the edge?

So, essentially, say, if I have stock 997 C2 and put GT3 front LCAs on it to increase camber to -2.5 degrees it pushes my into cup cars class where all competitors are good 1000+ pounds lighter than me?
But at same time I can put r-comps on my stock car and keep competing in same class with people who come to ride on all-season rubber? Could anybody explain a bit more of what modding is actually allowed and what is not as I am not sure I understand all those rules correctly.

00r101

The rulebook has all the information. Here is the link to the appropriate section
http://scca.com/documents/Solo_Rules...inal_draft.pdf
After reading it if you still have a specific question, ask it here and I will try to answer it.
Section 14.8 C says:
The following allowances apply to strut-type suspensions:
Adjustable camber plates may be installed at the top of the strut
and the original upper mounting holes may be slotted. The
drilling of holes in order to perform the installation is permitted.
The center clearance hole may not be modified. Any type of
bearing or bushing may be used in the adjustable camber plate
attachment to the strut. The installation may incorporate an
alternate upper spring perch/seat and/or mounting block
(bearing mount). Any ride height change resulting from
installation of camber plates is allowed. Caster changes
resulting from the use of camber plates are permitted.

And 14.8.I.2 says:
On arm-and-strut (MacPherson/Chapman) suspensions, the
lower arms may be modified/replaced OR other methods of
camber adjustment as allowed by paragraphs 14.8.B, C, or G
may be used, but not both.

So, as long as you don't cut the center clearance hole you can use a top-mounted camber plate OR you can use GT3 LCAs but not both. Personally I would go with camber plates. You really don't need a lot of extra negative camber because you will be lowering the car by using shorter, stiffer springs and will get some extra negatve camber from them. I would go with a godd low spring and shock package with adjustable sleeving first. Then I would corner weight and align the car. Then I would see if I needed extra camber compensation before buying plates.

PedalFaster

He's asking about a 997, though. I don't think a 997's legal in any ST class, in which case Section 14 isn't relevant here.

None of the proposed mods (upper mounts, camber plates, non-stock LCAs, coilovers) are legal in Stock. Think of classes as tiers -- you can prepare up to a limit and no more. It's not a goal to ensure equality or competitiveness of cars prepared to levels below the limit of the class, so you should choose your car and class carefully if you're concerned about maximum competitiveness. Having said that, a good driver can do well locally with just about any car.

sjfehr

Yeah, that's it in a nutshell.


Porsches are unfortunately specifically excluded from all the SCCA ST classes, except for a handful (some 924s, 944s 930s and 968s) allowed in STR. IMHO, it's unfair, but not much we can do about it.

My understanding: Camber plate and strut changes are illegal in SCCA stock classes unless specifically allowed for in the factory service manual for camber adjustments (EG, not on Porsches). We're restricted to what we get get with the OEM adjustments of the camber, which is OK in the rear, but sucks in the front. You can change any factory options, but it has to be a complete change to that factory option- for example, US M030 is a factory option for US Porsches, but ROW M030 is not. Springs and rear roll bar must be a factory option (and must be changed as a set- all must be M030 or all base, no mix). Front roll bar can be freely changed with few restrictions. Some aftermarket shocks are OK, too; you can lower the car slightly with aftermarket shocks, which can help camber, but read the rules carefully before you buy as you're still restricted. Wheels must be the same size a factory option. Any tire size is OK provided it fits on the wheels.

So, long story short: you can change coilovers and roll bars, but are stuck with US M030 springs and rear roll bar. And that's about the only thing about the suspension you can change without getting bumped from SS into ASP.

Tires must be DOT to compete (r-comp or street, but no slicks). All the national winners run on Hoosier A6s. If you want to be competitive on street tires, you'd have to run in your local street tire class. I've complained about this on the SCCA forums as I have my own personal philosophy on stock class as an everyman class that should be limited to street tires, but I was clearly in the minority and gave up. Sufficed to say, the rules aren't likely to change.

00r101

Ahhh, silly me. I seem to recall that this thread was entitled STR class. I guess I didn't read the hijack notice.

Anyway, it's all good. We need more Porsche people in the SCCA. The rules may seem weird at first but once you realize that you have to adapt to them and not the other way around, you get to enjoy the best competition against the best drivers anywhere.

I disagree that Porsches are classed unfairly. The problem is that the Porsche option list is so long and the options you pick make such a difference in performance and SCCA classes based on the performance potential of the best optioned car in that model, that many Porsches will not be competitive unless you retrofit very expensive options.

As an example, the 2009 Cayman S is classed in super stock. That's the same class as the Z06 'vette. To be competitive at an SCCA National level you need to option the car for max autox performance. That would include the following expensive options:
1) PASM $2000 - gets the car 10mm lower
2) LSD $1000
3) Sport Chrono $1000 - remapped throttle
4) Sport Bucket Seats $3350 - 20+ pounds lighter
5) PCCB Ceramic Brakes $8150 - 20+ pounds lighter lower unspung mass
That's more than $15000 in options.
And you would have to avoid the comfort options like PCM and Bose, full leather etc. all of which add weight.

How many people are willing to do that? Not many. It would be cheaper to go out and buy a used Z06 for $25k.

So some people claim the SCCA is anti-Porsche. I say not true. They just class them based on the best a model can theoretically be ordered from the factory. They do not want to class for the average optioned Porsche and then find that one guy comes out with a perfectly optioned one and wins everything but no one else can replicate his choice because this is the only car that came from the factory like that and if you could retrofit the options it would be incredibly, incredibly expensive.

J P Stein

Your argument is not reinforced by the STR class rules. There are a ton of Boxsters out there that cost about the same as an S2000. Trunk kits and unobtanium special models offered by other manufactures ....and classed by SCCA...do a number on your "options" arguments. The gold chain set doesn't bother with low rent autocross....except for an occasional Ferrari underachiever.

BTW, I ran SCCA ax for about 10 years in my 914.....competitively... with my own personal trunk kit.

sjfehr

It's not just a perception- they've come right out and said they create classes very specifically to ensure no Porsche will ever be "the car to have" and cited that as the primary reason the Boxster is prohibited from STR, but S2000 was an explicit performance target. They're quite simply worried the STR Boxster will be too fast, which would "ruin" the class because it's a Porsche.

kwikt

^^^^ ageed!

PedalFaster

I think that's exactly the case, and I don't understand why you think it should be otherwise. The rules makers took great pains to ensure several different cars will contend for the top dog spot in STR. Why would they want to throw out that work and drop in an overdog from a marque that's proven to be unpopular amongst SCCA autocrossers time and time again?

sjfehr

I don't think the Boxster would necessarily be any faster than the S2000, certainly not the 08 SC which is quite a monster. Boxster S, maybe, not not the base Boxster. No reason to exclude it. I'd even say LET the Boxster S compete; if they're running away with the class, kick them out, otherwise, let those of us with Boxsters compete!

utkinpol

So as none of that answers my question - into what class will stock 997 GT3 car fit and into what class will fit C2 car with, say, all suspension parts taken from a GT3 car? Just curious to see how much sense (if any) all those rules make.

I just suggest placing any street car with minor suspension mods into class where real racing cup cars compete is utterly ridiculous. Any second car over there has coilovers, custom toe links, custom sway bars - but none of that makes it comparable to a fully stripped cup car with rebuilt engine, gearbox, transmission, etc.

00r101

In answer to your questions - ASP (assuming you meant a 997 GT3 not a 997 GTR Cup Car - a cup car goes to a Mod class (EM?) where it would be crushed by purpose built autocross cars.)

But you should RTFM and make your own decisions http://scca.com/documents/Solo_Rules...solo_rules.pdf

If you don't like SCCA rules you have 3 choices:
Don't play
Play and comply
Join the club, get involved at the National level and prove your points by well reasoned letters to the SEB.

Notice that none of the choices involve complaining about the rules set on some Porsche forum.

MechanicalEng

I run a 996TT in ASP and my brother runs a S2K in STR, I also think that Porsches are treated unfairly, but I understand that if a Porsche was the "car to have" in any class it would be unfair to many people. I think STR is a great class, here in my region (DC) there are at leats 15 STRs cars in every event.
A 997 will be SS but a 997 GT3 will be ASP. A 997 with GT3 suspension will become a ASP car, you will have to fight against GT3s GT2s, Turbos, C6 ZO6s...

PedalFaster

"What, the classing rules aren't written around my specific preferences for which car to run and which modifications to install? Utterly ridiculous!"

To expand on what 00r101 wrote - you can tell the difference between the serious driving enthusiasts and the wannabes because the former drive what they've got regardless of classing or find themselves competitive rides, while the latter complain endlessly about stupid, unfair, biased classing despite the fact that eveyone has to play by the same rules, and as a result often don't get around to the actual driving part.

utkinpol, which category are you going to put yourself into?