Tim Pruitt

Just ordered set of A3SO4's for AutoX in September.

Any words of wisdom or insight into setup, tire pressures, etc.

Car is 993 2S running in P17.

nile13

Tim, a local guy here, a very fast guy, actually sold his S04s and bought up a bunch of S03s. He was complaining bitterly that they felt greasy to him.
To that end, I'd try to scrub them a bit before the first event. There is a great debate on S04 pressures, but most say go 5 psi higher than on S03s.
Have fun! Let us know how it went.

NJ-GT

Good luck.

I got just 5 autocrosses from them. My A3S03 had way more grip, lasted 14 autocrosses and I sold them with life left.

I just got a new set of Kumho V700 and I will post results.

PedalFaster

The complaints on this forum seem to contradict the sentiment in the SCCA autocross community. Consensus amongst those I've talked to is that the A3S04s have greater overall grip than the A3S03s, albeit as the expense of turn-in crispness and tolerance for high tire temperatures.

Steve
- trophied at every National Tour this year except for the one where I ran A3S03s

Tim Pruitt

Jeff at Hoosier recommends 44-48psi cold for the A3S04's.

I have some experience with the Kumho V700's.

I will definetly scrub the Hoosier S04's real good before the first event.

I will update everyone after the AutoX in early September.

NJ-GT

I started at 44 psi. This was the recommendation from Hoosier for my 2980 lbs GT3 (I took their recommendation for a 3000 lbs car).

I ran 40psi front and 44psi rear without the grip I was expecting. I actually corded the rear ones on my 4th autocross, both of them, inside and outside.

On my fifth autocross with them, I ran 1 session at 40f/44r and for the second session, I dropped the pressure to what I was using on my A3S03 : 32psi front&rear. Guess what? I drop almost 1 second of my time during the afternoon session and took FTD on the stock classes. By the time I removed them, they were corded to the metal (steel belts showing inside and outside on my rear tires).

I run multiple different autocross clubs. There are very consistent experienced drivers. I compared my times with the MPSC and the A3S04, and they were quite even. However I was running a wider size front and rear with the Hoosiers. Totally unacceptable.

I have 2 or 3 autocrosses this weekend, and I just installed a new set of Ecsta V700. I will post my opinions next week, but from my initial back roads test, these Kumho have a lot to talk about.

The only success I do know on A3S04 is on cars 2500 lbs or lighter.

For the records, when I was running in the D.C. National Tour this year, I was driving on cold MPSC. Not a chance to be competitive. I saw 1 car cording brand new A3S04 on Sunday that were installed on Friday for few practice runs, 6 laps Saturday and 6 laps Sunday. I also witnessed a 2003 M3 cording A3S04 on his second autocross.

This is definitely not Consensus.

PedalFaster

Sigh. I deliberately chose my words ("consensus amongst those I've talked to") to not include you since you obviously disagree. To expand on what I wrote -- consensus among those I've talked to (primarily West Cost B Stock drivers, including two who must be considered at least dark horses for the national champion's jacket in September, but also various people driving a variety of other cars on online forums) is that the A3S04s have greater lateral grip that the A3S03s. The A3S04s lack the A3S03s' turn-in crispness, though, and the newer tires also tend to turn greasy if they overheat, which they do at temperatures the A3S03s would happily tolerate.

You asserted in your response that A3S04s wear out quickly, and I absolutely agree that the A3S04s will cord in a remarkably short number of runs on camber-challenged cars -- that does not in any way contradict my original comment about lateral grip. My understanding is that excessive A3S04 wear only occurs on cars with insufficient camber or tire pressure -- my A3S04s still have significant tread remaining after 36 runs, two Tour trophies (they weren't being babied), and several treatments with Formula V Traction Treatment (which reduces tread life). The R3S04s seem to have more of a problem; excessive R3S04 wear does not appear to be limited to under-cambered cars.

Back to the A3S03 vs. A3S04 discussion -- this is not to say that A3S04s are faster in every application, which is why I took care not to state as much. I know Mark Chiles tested both the A3S03s and A3S04s on his HS Mini early in the season and opted to go with the A3S03s at at least some events. Mark Sipe tested both on his BS Z4 and also decided to go with A3S03s. I've heard rumors of Z06 drivers opining that the A3S04 doesn't put down power well (which I find puzzling, since neither does the A3S03). In the majority of cases I've seen, though, the newer tire is considered as fast or faster than the older one once appropriate setup changes are made.

B Stock has been won at every West Coast (Phoenix, San Diego, Atwater, and Bremerton) National Tour so far this year has been won by A3S04-shod S2000s. A number of drivers started the season on A3S03s, but by Atwater and Bremerton all of the top runners were on A3S04s. S2000s weigh a bit over 2800 lbs. as delivered, and in the 2650 - 2750 lbs. range in SCCA Stock prep. I don't have much information on other classes since I run in B Stock.

I apologize in advance if you take what follows as a personal attack -- it is not intended as one.

The Pilot isn't as fast as the Victoracer or the Ecsta (V700) in autocross, let alone either model of Hoosier or the V710 Escta. This is for all intents and purposes universally acknowledged (note: wording chosen specifically to exclude you). If you are getting similar times on Pilot Sport Cups as you are with the new Hoosiers, that means that you are underdriving or have not correctly set up the Hoosiers, not that the Pilots have equivalent grip. The D.C. Tour results demonstrate this -- you were beaten in ASP by a nationally unknown driver by more than six seconds, by Super Stock by almost nine seconds, and by all of the other Stock classes except for H Stock (a class won by a car with less than one third the power of yours). Time differences of that magnitude aren't due to tires -- you were beaten because you weren't driving your car or your tires to the limits of their capabilities. As such, while I'm sure everyone on this forum appreciates your contributing to the discussion, it would appear that you're not getting everything out of your tires, and thus are a less reliable source of data on ultimate grip than those who are winning said National Tours.

Again, sorry if I come across as harsh, but I couldn't think of a friendlier way to illustrate my point without omitting necessary data.

Steve

[Edited to further clarify some statements, and also to take the edge off of others.]

NJ-GT

Pedal Faster:

My car is running 3.5 degrees front camber and 2.5 degrees rear camber, 0 toe front and 3/32" toe in rear. I don't think it's a camber challenged car to justify so early cording. They started cording after 39 runs, and they totally corded with 47 runs (just the rear ones). I know people running them on the E36 M3, Miatas, Civic, etc without problems. Once you run them on a Z06, 993, 996 then early cording could be an issue.

Regarding D.C, my 1200 miles brand new GT3 broke the transmission there. There were complaints I filed to the dealer since I got the car (inner rear wheel locking on tight turns), and that's the reason why they didn't reject to install a $$$ brand new transmission under warranty even though I was racing. Cold MPSC, the lack of a co-driver, a defective transmission (that fortunely broke there) is a little more than just tires to justify that magnitude.

As an example, that very same ASP winner in the tour won the ASP NE divisional not long ago. At the last event we ran together (2 weeks ago), I was almost 2 seconds ahead of the same driver that was 6 seconds faster (over a 2 days event). The F prepared DC tour champion won the NE divisional as well, and just few weeks ago he came a full second behind my Porsche Club FTD.

You can check every other name at National level that had competed on any local event where I've been since June 7th (there are plenty) and most likely they were not any faster than me. NNJR-PCA and MClub on the Web.

But, your're completely right, I'm not getting everything out of my tires, they are corded and I prefer not to use them anymore.

Tim:

Is that September event the PorscheRama 3 days event at Pocono International Raceway?

J P Stein

I run the A3SO4s (225 X 45 both ends) on my 914....bout 2100 lbs. I have maybe 100 passes on em' and they're about 1/2 gone.....so is the season, so I can't complain. I'm running 2 deg negative camber (a bit too much in the rear says the temp gauge) and the tiars seem to be wearing very evenly.
I'm closing in on the proper pressures (for my car). I found that if I run them around 39 psi, the fronts don't get hot enough. I've dropped it to 30/33 cold.....that gets em' hot. They rise to 39/40 very quickly (2 runs) and if I don't go back to the low 30s during a session, they get greasy. I know of some folks that are spraying them down water to cool them....nobody said this was easy.

That heavy cars wear the SO4s more rapidly doesn't surprise me a bit. The Z06 hot dogs are running Vracers in front and SO4s in the rear (a sizing issure, I'm told). That will probably cease when the Kuhmo 710s become more widely available once more.

A fella in a B stock Boxster (who usually beats me) showed up at a local AX with MPSCs....it was damp....but it dried out and he got his hat handed to him.

BTW, Steve, I was havin' a bad day up at Bremerton......stunk up the joint in fact. I'll do beter next time. PCA AX tomorrow at PIR, AM, South pits.

nile13

A friend and a compatitor was seriously showing cords today on his S04s. 30 runs (!), negative camber galore, Miata.

J P Stein

Negative camber golare doesn't really mean much to me. The amount of camber...pos or neg ....should be set acording to the tire temps across the face of the tire. The insides of the rears are gonna run hotter than the outsides....particularly if you have enough power to haze them. The WAG set-up at the start of the season needs to be checked with the temp gauge. On wide tires, this is even more important for decent tire life. 3.5 deg negative camber means that a 10 inch wide tread is .6 inches out of level to the ground. If the pressure is high, maybe (WAG) 2/3rds of the tread is supporting the weight of that corner. If your car corners flat, all that negative camber hurts more than helps.... all aspects of performance. If the car leans alot or you run low pressures that cause the tire to roll under,then it starts working for you.

These are just my opinions and they're mine

nile13

He's a nationally competitive SM2 Miata driver. I think he has about 3.5 to 4 degrees of negative camber in the rear, about 3 degrees in the front.
We ran a P-car event today. An RS clone 911 with dual drivers and S04s all around... corded rears after about 40 runs total.
Something tells me that's a tendency here...

PedalFaster

Well, I'll have to cede the tire wear point -- after an autocross today, I noticed one of my rear A3S04s, while not yet corded, is missing a thin strip of rubber around the circumference of the outside shoulder. This is after 44 runs.

There are no other competitive R-compound choices for my car (Honda S2000), so I'll keep on using the Hoosiers. The wear doesn't bother me much since I have stacks of tires that I'm trying to burn off anyway, but I can imagine it would annoy someone trying to make a set of tires last. Then again, Hoosiers have never been the right tire for that contingent anyway.

Steve

NJ-GT

Well,

After a PCA and MClub autocross on the Kumho ECSTA V700, I have some additional information.

My times dropped by a 0.7 seconds average compared with the Hoosier A3S04. I got this number by calculating the times from the top drivers running at National level and the best local drivers (that haven't been at Nationals SCCA events) in both clubs for the 6 events I ran Hoosiers. I only considered the drivers that have been running the same cars and tires.

I haven't driven my car with so much grip as this past weekend.

My conclusion is that I got a set of shot Hoosiers A3S04 from the Tire Rack. Probably one set of those winter exposed tires in Indiana. There is no way that a V700 be consistently faster than a Hoosier A3S04.

I will give Hoosiers a second try, but this time I will get them from a different source.

By the way, the 305/30R18 Hoosier A3S04 is way taller and way wider than the 305/30R18 ECSTA V700. The 245/35R18 Hoosier A3S04 has almost the same width and almost same height than the 265/35R18 ECSTA V700.

I let the best MClub driver to drive my car for 2 laps, and he was unable to get close to my FTD. I let the best two PCA drivers to drive my car for an entire session, and they were unable to drop my FTD.

Two FTD in a row. Not bad considering that plenty of people was running Hoosier and the new V710 at both events. One of them a full second ahead of the second best time, the other 1.4 seconds ahead of the second best time.

PedalFaster

NJ-GT, are you going to Nationals? It's one thing to beat national-level hotshoes at local events when they may not be bringing their best game; it's another thing to beat them at the big show.

Steve