edfishjr

"Has BS been destroyed? Currently it has the Supra and the M2, and I would still argue that the C5 FRC and the Cayman/Boxster S still could be competitive if the course is right (in the same way a C5Z might hold a candle to a C6Z)....If they added the 997, 781 base, and hell, the 981 S models, it would be a thriving class with a lot of variety."

Destroyed was bit of an exaggeration on my part. BS went from 54 drivers in 2017 and rising every year to 41 drivers in 2018 with a much higher average cost per car. Then it went back to 53 in 2019 with the Superponies, down to 41 in 2021 (Covid year?) and now only 19 registered for 2022 with no Superponies and a single C6 Corvette, which is me. I'd definitely call what's happened now "destroyed." I also recommended more cars to go into BS to replace the Superponies, including the C6 base, the 997.1 but not the 997.2, all the 987 cars and the 718 base(? I think? Don't quite remember.)

One of the problems often stated with Porsche classing is the difficulty in determining the actual options available, especially given the history of mistakes in the order guides. This is a real problem. However, after a model has completed its run, such as the 987s and 981s, it is possible, with the help of people like us doing the research, to figure it out.

As for the Caymans & Boxsters presently in BS, I've autocrossed them all and do not believe they can compete against the C5, much less the M2 and Supra, for various reasons, but mostly thanks to modern tires that put down power so well coming off corners. A combination of poor gearing, small engines and only minor weight advantages means they just don't have enough thrust to keep up with turbo cars and big V8s that can now use more of their thrust advantage. If I thought they could hang, I'd be driving one.

burglar

SS/AS/BS mix and participation is really weird both right now and taking into consideration upcoming vehicles.

I'm sure we'll goof up plenty in the next couple years.

sgreer78

GT4 to HS.

BmacIL

I guess I don't understand what "recommended these changes to the BOD" means.

sologt3

This thread is about as RL elitist/SCCA I-class as it gets. More whining about "my car my car my car" than a box of Franzia up in here, with terrible "data points" to back up any claims.

Burglar: thank you for being the voice of reason here and for being on the SAC. From time to time I tinker with the idea of volunteering for the SAC, then I see stuff like this that makes me glad I didnt.

It's funny, he posts the most truthful and grounded posts in this thread, but everyones' replies seem to ignore what he says.

Folks, this is the SCCA, SPORTS CAR Club if America. This is not the PCA. There are only 9 classes in Street, but it needs to cover the ridiculously wide range of the whole sports car genre. Everything from $2000 Miatas to $200,000 GT3s, and everything in between. The hot hatches, the American muscle, roadsters, etc. And all these cars need to appeal to the wide range of the members of the SCCA, from the ones that make minimum wage but still make things happen to be able to race, to the ones that bitch and moan because their PTS car is going to take longer to build.

One of the great classes we have is AS. Why? Because you can get ungodly amounts of performance for a fraction of the price of a Porsche. I bet most of you have never even raced a Z06. They are great cars, especially considering the price. And one of the greatest things about AS is that you don't need a C6Z06 to win. You can absolutely get it done in a $20,000 C5Z06. How do I know? That's exactly what I did. I won Nationals in a C5Z06 against Daddio in a C6Z06. Jason Frank did the same a few years later. Yes, a measley 405HP, old Corvette beat out the fire-breathing 505HP C6Z06. Because HP is everything in autox 🙄. And I see these "data points" with names from AS being thrown around. Most of those guys don't even have a jacket. Daddio has 10+ now? These comparisons are pretty useless. "In my local region this one guy blah blah blah blah.". Heard it so many times. Want real data? Go look at results from Nationals last year. No rain, same tires, balanced courses. No excuses.

So why should this formula be ruined? Because you already own or you got a car that has to fit your needs, but not necessarily competitive? Let's potentially ruin a very good class with a car that's 2x-8x more expensive than the current AS front runners? And let's look at the cars themselves. As a sports car enthusiast, many have dreamed or wished for a Z06 in some point of their life. But how many people ever thought: "I've always wanted a base Cayman/911 with all the wrong options for going fast, but it has this amazing color and 18 way heated seats!". Then the same people think "my base Porsche with all the wrong options isn't winning my class? The SCCA volunteers are idiots! They totally have it in for Porsche owners." 🙄

Let's simplify things here. You guys own a 911 (same applies for Cayman). There are 926,375 variations of 911 (C2, C4, S, GTS, blah blah), but they are the same car, a 911. Do you see the SCCA make a different class for each trim level of Civic, or for the different engines/drivetrains of a 3 series BMW? So why should we do the same for Porsche? It would be excruciating to figure out and class for each different trim of each different car ( and mind you, this is a VOLUNTEER committee ). So when you look at a 911, (excluding a Turbo/GT2/3), the best 911 is a GTS, which is just a well optioned S. So, a 991 GTS, will it be faster than a Z06? Has a lot of potential to be. Would I campaign a 991 GTS in AS? **** yeah. I think it would handily beat a Z06 on an autox course. After one person beats the Z06s, what will happen to the class? How many Z06 competitors do you think will move up to a $100,000+ car?

I think the SCCA even throws a bone to the base cars for classing some in a lower class. Should they be front runners in their class? **** no. If they are classed lower, it should be so so that they aren't the front runner. Besides, how many base cars here were ordered with all the right suspension/diff/PTV/+/PDK/bull**** options? Again, on a base car? MAYBE 1? It's be a ****ing unicorn. You think that's fair to class a car competitively that has a tiny number of cars optioned the right way? And again, who the hell would have ordered all these go fast options on a base car?!?! Theyd be a moron to do that without getting an S/GTS. Most base cars are leases for people that want to look good for their Star bucks runs. They have 18 way seats with heat warmers at the most.

And all this applies to the 718 Cayman, which is why I think it's a terrible idea to class those in AS as well.

And back to the Turbo/GT3. Is it fair to lump the 911/718 in with them? No. But the demand was strong enough back when the first GT3 was introduced to class them. And if you asked the general membership what car they want classed competitively between a regular 911 or a Turbo/GT, what do you think they will vote? Do you think they dream of racing a 911, or a Turbo/GT3?

Does our current classing make a little more sense now? It's far from perfect, but it's part of racing. Want to be competitive in autox? You have to look at the current landscape and pick a car and class. And even when you do, it won't last and you'll be superseded. Ask me how I know. But that's racing.

James

edfishjr

James' post spurred me to look up the SS/AS recent history.

Fun Facts without much injected opinion:

-The C6Z06 never won its class at Nationals during its production years, 2006 to 2013. During this time the classes were called Stock, running DOT-R tires, and it was beaten over and over by the GT3, Viper, Elise and C5Z06. For whatever reason, no top drivers were in C6Z06s, the Grandsport being favored by Strano and others. The GS never won either.

-In 2014 the C6Z06 won it’s class (AS) for the first time with Daddio, the first year of Street on 200TW tires, after it and the C5Z06 were divorced from the GT3s, Elises, etc. that were left in SS. C5Z06s were 2nd and 3rd with an S2000CR in 4th.

-GT3s won SS in 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017. In 2018 a GT4 won. In 2019 the new NSX won.

-In 2015 Yom won AS in a C5Z06 beating Daddio in a C6Z06

-In 2016 Daddio won AS again in a C6Z06 with 2nd and 3rd taken by C5Z06 cars.

-In 2017 Frank, in a C5Z06, beat Daddio in a C6Z06 to take the AS win.

-In 2018 C5Z06 cars took 1st and 2nd in AS. The leading C6Z06 was 3rd.

-In 2019 C6Z06s took 1st and 2nd, Janulis took 3rd in a Cayman S. A C5Z06 took 4th.

-In 2021 an NSX piloted by Tomo won SS, just barely ahead of Yom in a GT3 and Braun in a GT4. Rob Clark was 6th in a C8.

-In 2021 1st, 2nd and 3rd in AS were C6Z06s with Cayman GTS in 4th and 5th. (Opinion: This is the first year you could say that the C6Z06 dominated AS. C5Z06s were 7th and 9th, piloted by good but, as of now, clearly somewhat lesser drivers.)

Note: I think 2015 was the first year of the new Bridgestone 200TW tire, the first new tire of the "super-200" Street era.

RacingChris44

It certainly seems like the continued advancement in "200tw" (partially sarcastic quotes) tires and possibly faster course design (that has been my overall experience locally) has helped the C6Z become more dominant (and probably helped the 981's with their taller gearing as well). Another observation I've had (I've been racing around 7 years) is pre-RE71, on fast concrete, pretty much any car on r-compound was going to have PAX...It is almost never the case anymore (which is a strong indicator of how good street tires have gotten)..I've seen the r-comp participation drop off however as well.

Speaking of street tires, I have to get my EVX car ready for the Hoosier Challenge tomorrow...Will probably be one of the last races for me, this car, and the "200tw" yokes that are getting close to their melting point.

RacingChris44

It might be time to introduce Super-Duper Street? Perfect fit for the new GT3, C8Z, GT4RS, Mclaren Artura, Ferrari XYZ, etc.

edfishjr

My approach has always been to never add more classes, but to add more competitive cars to existing classes in an attempt to increase numbers and competitive variety at the regional level. (Adding more competitive cars will not necessarily increase numbers at the national level.)

Any such effort entails a certain amount of additional work and additional risk. I get that. But, I think there are some safe and obvious classing changes that could be done. As I wrote back in January:

Not enough other models were put into BS to replace all the SuperPonies that were already bought and moved to FS even if we hadn't had a pandemic used-car squeeze, so I don't foresee a lot of buying of the existing cars in class. There were plenty of other cars, including Porsches (987.2 CS) and other Corvettes (C7Z51) that could/should have been moved that would have brought numbers. (I have never actually seen even one fat C7Z51 on it's narrow little rims run at an SCCA autocross. That's pitiful. 26,000 Z51 coupes were sold in the two years 2014-15 alone. Talk about a popular car with no place to play!)

All this will surely leave BS sorely depleted this year and maybe next as well, barring a convenient recession. The only thing that can save BS now is if the 400Z really has 444hp and weighs 3200lbs like the game says and sells for $40K.

And we now know that the 400Z has nothing like the numbers mentioned above and will never be a player in BS.

burglar

The process is indeed a total pita (and a bit of a mystery.)

We were looking to backfill BS after FS losses and we had a log of requests specifically for the C6 and Alfa Four Cheeses. Getting the 996 on there was from my effort, I proposed adding the 997 (and 987.2) as well but we decided against it.

Here's the original letter that went out for member comment:

The response letters were pretty split between "I love it" and "Don't you dare do the C6." We had lots of discussion and eventually decided to go with the proposal as written. Your letter was requesting an additional car be added to the proposal. We can't just throw another car in there and ship it up without member feedback. We would have to amend the proposal, re-send it out for comment, and await those responses.

You probably deserved a "TYFYI the SAC does not believe the Porsche 997 fits within the competitive balance in BS at this time" but instead your letter was lumped into the batch of responses for #30742.

We sent up #30742 to the SEB.
The SEB typically rubber stamps what we send up (two SEB reps are on every one of our calls) unless there's some wording issue or unless the rest of the SEB doesn't agree with what the SEB reps have to say.
The SEB sent it up to the BOD.
The BOD usually just rubber stamps things unless there's a large change in philosophy inconsistent with a grander plan we may not be privy to.
The BOD released it in time for the changes to make the 2022 rulebook / season.

The lag time of create proposal -> approve -> publish in FT -> feedback -> discuss feedback -> send up -> approve(SEB) -> approve(BOD) -> publish in FT definitely hamstrings us from time to time.

RacingChris44

I appreciate what you share about the process - The transparency is helpful and while a lot of us may not like it, it's still good to see, so thank you! I have a couple of questions hopefully you can help with:

1. "Class philosophy" - Is there a definition behind what the philosophy is for a class?
2. Are there certain time periods that are better to send letters for consideration or is it totally random based on when class considerations are made?

Thanks!

burglar

There's no better time than the present to write a letter. We meet once a month and cover all letters received each month. The offseason is slower for obvious reasons.

For classing, we're very general in Section 13:

My (non-official) version:
SS - Fastest street cars with only few exclusions due to cost / availability
AS - Fastest / most powerful volume sports cars
BS - Fast sports cars plus too-fast-for-DS cars
CS - Small / light late model sports cars
DS - Super hatchbacks and a few oddball sports coupes
ES - Cheap Street (Used to be C-Stock where it got the Cheap Stock nickname)
FS - Pony party
GS - Grocery Street w/LSD
HS - Open diff version of GS

• Obviously a lot of overlap there, popular cars may get a favorable tweak, unpopular / rare / expensive / difficult to run cars often get unfavorable tweaks. A fast but unfavorable to the membership car can (and has) killed a class very quickly.
• Older / used cars don't get moved down often, except for in an effort to pump up weak numbers, which honestly doesn't really work anyways. The C6 was an unusually aggressive class down. With the exception of ES, we mostly focus on late model cars.
• Many decisions are discussed from a risk / reward perspective. This relates very closely to the two prior points.
• We try to look ahead and anticipate upcoming new cars, and where they'll fit in the puzzle.
• We tend to try to keep similar cars together in most classes. BS and DS are notable exceptions with varieties of car types that make speed in different ways. For some members that's a plus, others a minus.
• We class / write rules for 100% builds in Lincoln in September.
• Remember, we're all unpaid volunteer competitors as well. We're a group of people who have different opinions and talk out compromises once per month to try to represent the membership and keep the sport fun.
• Related to above, we're human and make mistakes. Sometimes we're just surprised with what people actually show up in in numbers.

RacingChris44

You forgot one:

CAM: Loudest cars with the worst mileage.

I think the variety of BS and DS honestly can be pretty cool/fun

I really appreciate the information - Thank you!