BS 996
01-06-2022, 09:20 AM
#16
At the end of the day, we're just re-slicing the same pie. We have 9 classes, and we try to build around the 9 most popular cars or types of cars.
I hope the C6 backfills some of the pony car loss, but in reality we need late model cars to pull strong Street grids, ES excepted of course. The Z might help (I'll go ahead and wager $47k MSRP for the trim you'll need,) the rumored manual trans on the Supra might help. Upcoming new M2 might help. I'm still of the opinion we should drop the Tesla (plus the Mach E and Polestar 2) back down. But there's clearly no marquee car for BS, nor much of an identity. If it tanks, we'll re-slice.
The bananas market isn't helping anything. I hear new car inventories should start to recover soon, I don't know if the "used toy" market will lag behind that or not. I just looked up what comparables to my DD Civic Si are going for - MSRP or even above with 50k miles. lol wat.
I hope the C6 backfills some of the pony car loss, but in reality we need late model cars to pull strong Street grids, ES excepted of course. The Z might help (I'll go ahead and wager $47k MSRP for the trim you'll need,) the rumored manual trans on the Supra might help. Upcoming new M2 might help. I'm still of the opinion we should drop the Tesla (plus the Mach E and Polestar 2) back down. But there's clearly no marquee car for BS, nor much of an identity. If it tanks, we'll re-slice.
The bananas market isn't helping anything. I hear new car inventories should start to recover soon, I don't know if the "used toy" market will lag behind that or not. I just looked up what comparables to my DD Civic Si are going for - MSRP or even above with 50k miles. lol wat.
01-06-2022, 09:56 AM
#17
At the end of the day, we're just re-slicing the same pie. We have 9 classes, and we try to build around the 9 most popular cars or types of cars.
I hope the C6 backfills some of the pony car loss, but in reality we need late model cars to pull strong Street grids, ES excepted of course. The Z might help (I'll go ahead and wager $47k MSRP for the trim you'll need,) the rumored manual trans on the Supra might help. Upcoming new M2 might help. I'm still of the opinion we should drop the Tesla (plus the Mach E and Polestar 2) back down. But there's clearly no marquee car for BS, nor much of an identity. If it tanks, we'll re-slice.
The bananas market isn't helping anything. I hear new car inventories should start to recover soon, I don't know if the "used toy" market will lag behind that or not. I just looked up what comparables to my DD Civic Si are going for - MSRP or even above with 50k miles. lol wat.
I hope the C6 backfills some of the pony car loss, but in reality we need late model cars to pull strong Street grids, ES excepted of course. The Z might help (I'll go ahead and wager $47k MSRP for the trim you'll need,) the rumored manual trans on the Supra might help. Upcoming new M2 might help. I'm still of the opinion we should drop the Tesla (plus the Mach E and Polestar 2) back down. But there's clearly no marquee car for BS, nor much of an identity. If it tanks, we'll re-slice.
The bananas market isn't helping anything. I hear new car inventories should start to recover soon, I don't know if the "used toy" market will lag behind that or not. I just looked up what comparables to my DD Civic Si are going for - MSRP or even above with 50k miles. lol wat.
01-06-2022, 12:30 PM
#18
That's actually a perfect example of what we're hoping the base C6 does. AS is the C6 z06 class, and the 981 is considered "very competitive, but maybe a slight underdog." It gives another car option for even competitive types to bring a different car to grid, which helps numbers and is generally good for the membership.
However, if a 981 Cayman GTS PDK w/PTV were perceived as the car to have in AS, the z06s would disappear and the class would tank. We'd have to either move the 981 out and hope the z06s return, or re-org AS into something else.
tl;dr we hope the C6 z51 is competitive enough to draw some BS entries, but not too competitive to drive away current ones. It's not a popular enough car to support a class on its own - and most people would pay a little more for the far better z06 unless they already had one sitting in their garage.
It's a delicate balance, and since perception is sometimes not based on reality, it's even harder.
However, if a 981 Cayman GTS PDK w/PTV were perceived as the car to have in AS, the z06s would disappear and the class would tank. We'd have to either move the 981 out and hope the z06s return, or re-org AS into something else.
tl;dr we hope the C6 z51 is competitive enough to draw some BS entries, but not too competitive to drive away current ones. It's not a popular enough car to support a class on its own - and most people would pay a little more for the far better z06 unless they already had one sitting in their garage.
It's a delicate balance, and since perception is sometimes not based on reality, it's even harder.
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BmacIL (01-06-2022)
01-06-2022, 12:34 PM
#19
That's actually a perfect example of what we're hoping the base C6 does. AS is the C6 z06 class, and the 981 is considered "very competitive, but maybe a slight underdog." It gives another car option for even competitive types to bring a different car to grid, which helps numbers and is generally good for the membership.
However, if a 981 Cayman GTS PDK w/PTV were perceived as the car to have in AS, the z06s would disappear and the class would tank. We'd have to either move the 981 out and hope the z06s return, or re-org AS into something else.
tl;dr we hope the C6 z51 is competitive enough to draw some BS entries, but not too competitive to drive away current ones. It's not a popular enough car to support a class on its own - and most people would pay a little more for the far better z06 unless they already had one sitting in their garage.
It's a delicate balance, and since perception is sometimes not based on reality, it's even harder.
However, if a 981 Cayman GTS PDK w/PTV were perceived as the car to have in AS, the z06s would disappear and the class would tank. We'd have to either move the 981 out and hope the z06s return, or re-org AS into something else.
tl;dr we hope the C6 z51 is competitive enough to draw some BS entries, but not too competitive to drive away current ones. It's not a popular enough car to support a class on its own - and most people would pay a little more for the far better z06 unless they already had one sitting in their garage.
It's a delicate balance, and since perception is sometimes not based on reality, it's even harder.
01-06-2022, 04:59 PM
#20
You can write a letter, but risk/reward isn't great, specifically the latter. We're just moving the 996 to BS now, and moved the 997 out of SS just last year IIRC? I'd think chances are... not great.
The best 996 is the 40th AE most likely, how does 997.1S compare weight / wheel width / power wise? Was there an LSD option? That's the kind of thing you'd want in a letter.
There's a LOT of cars buried in SS/AS right now which I think we're aware of, some made the cut to drop to BS this round, some didn't.
The best 996 is the 40th AE most likely, how does 997.1S compare weight / wheel width / power wise? Was there an LSD option? That's the kind of thing you'd want in a letter.
There's a LOT of cars buried in SS/AS right now which I think we're aware of, some made the cut to drop to BS this round, some didn't.
01-06-2022, 05:15 PM
#21
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
That's actually a perfect example of what we're hoping the base C6 does. AS is the C6 z06 class, and the 981 is considered "very competitive, but maybe a slight underdog." It gives another car option for even competitive types to bring a different car to grid, which helps numbers and is generally good for the membership.
However, if a 981 Cayman GTS PDK w/PTV were perceived as the car to have in AS, the z06s would disappear and the class would tank. We'd have to either move the 981 out and hope the z06s return, or re-org AS into something else.
tl;dr we hope the C6 z51 is competitive enough to draw some BS entries, but not too competitive to drive away current ones. It's not a popular enough car to support a class on its own - and most people would pay a little more for the far better z06 unless they already had one sitting in their garage.
It's a delicate balance, and since perception is sometimes not based on reality, it's even harder.
However, if a 981 Cayman GTS PDK w/PTV were perceived as the car to have in AS, the z06s would disappear and the class would tank. We'd have to either move the 981 out and hope the z06s return, or re-org AS into something else.
tl;dr we hope the C6 z51 is competitive enough to draw some BS entries, but not too competitive to drive away current ones. It's not a popular enough car to support a class on its own - and most people would pay a little more for the far better z06 unless they already had one sitting in their garage.
It's a delicate balance, and since perception is sometimes not based on reality, it's even harder.
I don't think you have to worry about upsetting the "delicate balance" in BS. BS appears to be gone. Without an influx of Corvettes or other new cars/new drivers there effectively won't be a class this year, certainly not one that can live up to it's PAX.
Moving the very popular Superponies out of BS was a big move. An equally big move was needed to fill the hole left behind. Moving a bunch of thought-to-be also-rans into the class isn't a fix. Only moving truly competitive cars in there is the fix. Better hope you have underestimated the C6 (and maybe the 996.) If it's not competitive, there is no future for the class until this timid policy is changed. If it is competitive (I think it is) and brings big numbers (I think it won't, at least immediately, due to prices), then you will have succeeded in spite of the strategy.
Last edited by edfishjr; 01-06-2022 at 05:30 PM.
01-06-2022, 05:17 PM
#22
You can write a letter, but risk/reward isn't great, specifically the latter. We're just moving the 996 to BS now, and moved the 997 out of SS just last year IIRC? I'd think chances are... not great.
The best 996 is the 40th AE most likely, how does 997.1S compare weight / wheel width / power wise? Was there an LSD option? That's the kind of thing you'd want in a letter.
There's a LOT of cars buried in SS/AS right now which I think we're aware of, some made the cut to drop to BS this round, some didn't.
The best 996 is the 40th AE most likely, how does 997.1S compare weight / wheel width / power wise? Was there an LSD option? That's the kind of thing you'd want in a letter.
There's a LOT of cars buried in SS/AS right now which I think we're aware of, some made the cut to drop to BS this round, some didn't.
No LSD option in 997.1 C2/C4/S/4S, only 10 hp over the 996 40th AE, and about 100ish lbs heavier. The amount of rubber you can fit is the same so for almost any course, a 997.1 should be very, very comparable to a 996. The biggest (and IMO only significant) advantage a 997.1 has over a 996 is PASM...but the 996 has available Koni yellows, and the 997 does not. To me it seems to be a no-brainer, but I don't see every side of the decision process.
01-06-2022, 10:33 PM
#23
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
I did write one. Latest Fastrack said it was one of the ones recommended to the BOD.
No LSD option in 997.1 C2/C4/S/4S, only 10 hp over the 996 40th AE, and about 100ish lbs heavier. The amount of rubber you can fit is the same so for almost any course, a 997.1 should be very, very comparable to a 996. The biggest (and IMO only significant) advantage a 997.1 has over a 996 is PASM...but the 996 has available Koni yellows, and the 997 does not. To me it seems to be a no-brainer, but I don't see every side of the decision process.
No LSD option in 997.1 C2/C4/S/4S, only 10 hp over the 996 40th AE, and about 100ish lbs heavier. The amount of rubber you can fit is the same so for almost any course, a 997.1 should be very, very comparable to a 996. The biggest (and IMO only significant) advantage a 997.1 has over a 996 is PASM...but the 996 has available Koni yellows, and the 997 does not. To me it seems to be a no-brainer, but I don't see every side of the decision process.
01-07-2022, 08:56 AM
#24
The amount of rubber you can fit is the same so for almost any course, a 997.1 should be very, very comparable to a 996.
Very generalized rule: Out of production cars that weren't popular with the membership in the first place never get bumped down with the expectation they'll be competitive. If a car was popular, and got obsoleted by something new, there is a chance. But that's pretty rare. We're conservative as it is, but it's a risk vs reward game.
Keep in mind I'm only one voice. What I personally want, what I think is best for the membership, and what we all come to consensus on and agree to put out don't always agree. In fact the Venn diagram on that has a not so big intersection. At the end of the day though, I have to stand by our decisions, and represent them positively.
01-07-2022, 09:13 AM
#25
The 997.1 has the XRR option (8.5/11.5) on all trims. 40th AE is 8/10. Wheel width is one of the most important things we look at.
Very generalized rule: Out of production cars that weren't popular with the membership in the first place never get bumped down with the expectation they'll be competitive. If a car was popular, and got obsoleted by something new, there is a chance. But that's pretty rare. We're conservative as it is, but it's a risk vs reward game.
Keep in mind I'm only one voice. What I personally want, what I think is best for the membership, and what we all come to consensus on and agree to put out don't always agree. In fact the Venn diagram on that has a not so big intersection. At the end of the day though, I have to stand by our decisions, and represent them positively.
Very generalized rule: Out of production cars that weren't popular with the membership in the first place never get bumped down with the expectation they'll be competitive. If a car was popular, and got obsoleted by something new, there is a chance. But that's pretty rare. We're conservative as it is, but it's a risk vs reward game.
Keep in mind I'm only one voice. What I personally want, what I think is best for the membership, and what we all come to consensus on and agree to put out don't always agree. In fact the Venn diagram on that has a not so big intersection. At the end of the day though, I have to stand by our decisions, and represent them positively.
Widest option wheel I can find for 996 Carrera is Sport Techno wheel with these specs:
Front - 8 x 18 ET 50
Rear - 11 x 18 ET 63
The extra half inch on the rear doesn't help the 997 from a balance perspective (it has no shortage of rear grip), but the half inch for the 8.5" front does some. 996 still a lighter car. I understand your rationalization and even agree with it for many reasons. On this particular one, I'm not sure I see the downside but I understand the precedent. What moved the 996 down? It was not a popular car nor a competitive one in AS either.
Last edited by BmacIL; 01-07-2022 at 09:17 AM.
01-07-2022, 11:48 AM
#26
Three Wheelin'
It's interesting how cars move through the classes. In 1998 when I first autocrossed my 964 it was in AS, then it was moved to BS and now it sits in CS.
At the Regional level I was most successful in AS. As a footnote I ran my first AX in 1969.
At the Regional level I was most successful in AS. As a footnote I ran my first AX in 1969.
01-14-2022, 03:16 PM
#27
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
01-14-2022, 03:18 PM
#28
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
OK I misremembered the rear width, thought it was 11" like the C4S.
Widest option wheel I can find for 996 Carrera is Sport Techno wheel with these specs:
Front - 8 x 18 ET 50
Rear - 11 x 18 ET 63
The extra half inch on the rear doesn't help the 997 from a balance perspective (it has no shortage of rear grip), but the half inch for the 8.5" front does some. 996 still a lighter car. I understand your rationalization and even agree with it for many reasons. On this particular one, I'm not sure I see the downside but I understand the precedent. What moved the 996 down? It was not a popular car nor a competitive one in AS either.
Widest option wheel I can find for 996 Carrera is Sport Techno wheel with these specs:
Front - 8 x 18 ET 50
Rear - 11 x 18 ET 63
The extra half inch on the rear doesn't help the 997 from a balance perspective (it has no shortage of rear grip), but the half inch for the 8.5" front does some. 996 still a lighter car. I understand your rationalization and even agree with it for many reasons. On this particular one, I'm not sure I see the downside but I understand the precedent. What moved the 996 down? It was not a popular car nor a competitive one in AS either.
01-14-2022, 04:16 PM
#29
The only 8.5 listed in the PET for the 996 is 996 362 126 05 which appears to be a rear for winter use, so any further info would be appreciated.
01-14-2022, 04:31 PM
#30