speed21

I truly believe it comes down to the relationship you have with the dealer and how comfortable they are with the actual mod itself, and the car they have sold you where it is used and they have no previous history of it in their shop in a service sense. We all should know that tunes are out anyway and it would be foolish to believe any warranty would apply unless it is clearly in writing.

The hard and fast rule of "no warranty" can always be applied but with the strong consumer protections that exist in this day and age it is not so easy to put a cart blanch rule down and enforce it especially if the consumer feels they have been hard done by and/or the evidence does not tally. Not that anyone would preferably want to go down that road, but it is still available. With an exhaust it would be a hard one for them to get over the line in any legal contest unless it could be proven the system did in some way negatively effect the engine in such a way it contributed to the failure/condition.

With Porsche's DFI, with regard to any warranty claim it is not that different to the non dfi units in terms of warranty and i'm perplexed why such paranoia exists here. There are literally thousands of these dfi Porsche engines now out in service, and, for a few years now, in all types of Porsche vehicles.

Quote me if I'm wrong here guys but there has yet to be even one solitary example of a Porsche dfi engine that to date has required premature servicing of the cylinder heads due to an excessive carbon build up condition in the valves. In so far as an AM exhaust system on a dfi goes, again unless it can be proven as being a contributing factor to this condition then again there would certainly be a problem for Porsche in denying a claim if the consumer forced the issue.

I still think if Jay wants more out his car sound wise then there are options which would allow him to enjoy his purchase more whilst not exposing himself in an obvious or reckless manner. I would agree putting a tune in is asking for trouble though....and that would be best pursuing after any factory warranty expired.

I would like to think the management structure within Porsche essentially allows the brand to maintain its core principles and I think for VW to undermine those principles would be detrimental to the brand whilst jeopardizing their own financial position in that process. I am sure there would be some synergy's that exist tho that worked positively for them as a group.

With the latest GT3, I would agree it has been a bad look for Porsche but when you look at the actual cause of the problem being a faulty batch of con rod bolts one can hardly ****-can the entire engine least of all car, nor blame the engineers, assemblers or Porsche themselves. Porsche AG wouldn't be making the bolts either and like many components are outsourced through various manufacturers they have assigned.

That said, I still have some faith in the new product. Problems will always crop up in any car no matter what it is and I think it is how those problems are dealt with that is more important.

TT Surgeon

Maybe in the past, but now pcna takes all the warranty decisions out of the local dealers hands. That is a corporate vw policy. However, in the US we have some protection with the MM Act with regard to consumable parts.
When my carbon fiber started to lift, in order to have it covered by cpo, the dealer had to submit dozens of pictures, then two weeks later ok'd the work, to the tune of 6k (entire cf replaced). Now, pcna will still grant goodwill status to good customers post warranty, for how long who knows.

speed21

The local dealer is still used to take the photos and submit report, and it is not as if HQ comes out themselves. So again if the relationship is sound and they are happy with whatever else exists on your car they will not create any obstacles that may raise red flags at HQ.

With your case it was one that required photos of a specific cosmetic problem so that claim was pretty straight forward.... no need to photograph wheels, exhausts or AM steering wheels etc. An engine failure would not be so straight forward either. They could always provide photographs of the actual engine damage without taking pictures of aftermarket wheels and exhaust systems etc.....again all pending on the relationship you hold and the comfort the dealer has with the overall car they sold you.

Kevin

As TT Surgeon has mentioned, in the US a PNA regional rep gets involved in "most" engine warranty failures. Especially a 997.2TT and 991TT that has come in under warranty. If you have dealership individuals misrepresenting engine mods and aftermarket performance items, they're jobs are on the line. The wink wink deals of yesteryear are over and done.

With the new DFI engines, VAG had been thru the bases with Audi and VW.

phillipj

My concerns are for the mass marketing of the Porsche brand.. I understand the need to grow and it is a business. I see so any Porsches everyday where I live they really aren't that special anymore. Yes the new TT is exception but the horribly ugly (IMHO) Panamera's are everywhere.. Now with more and more generic models coming from Porsche I believe it dillutes the brand (IMHO) and makes it more like MB and Audi and BMW.

Sure there were faulty rods that caused the failures on the GT3. But that is hardly an excuse for their most track ready car. That engine should have been tested to nauseum. And those inferior parts should have been identified well before shipping cars to customers.

This is just my feeling about the direction of the brand.. It's just not as "special" s it used to be. But realize that I live in Lon Angeles so the amount of Porsche's here is exponential compared to some other regions.

I still love my Porsche and will probably always have one.. My dealership has a large poster on the window of the dealership. It says "The Macan is coming!" Wow.. how exciting...A baby SUV..BFD..

Okay Speed now you are free to disagree with me LOL!

I am in no way pointing at your new toy and saying it's flawed. That is an awesome car..

br911

True Phillipj. The only way around VW (Porsche, Bentley, Lamborghini), Fiat (Ferrari) and Ford (Aston), just to name a few, that I can think of these days, is perhaps McLaren. Fiat is no different than VW in terms of its reach, but maybe they have a different relationship with Ferrari (the FF is a type of SUV, so I don't really know). On the other hand, I believe the massive discount and depreciation that some of those MP4's have experienced reflect the fact that who knows how reliable those cars are in the long run, and also if McLaren will be around as a company in 5 years time, as pointed to me by a friend. This past week Mac's CEO said that there is a limit to how much they can deviate from the upscale essence of their cars (or something like that...). Perhaps what McLaren really wants, or needs, is to be acquired by a big car maker in the near future.

But back to topic, I happened to be in the sidewalk yesterday when a brand new MP4 (soon to be the old Mac sports car) downshifted to stop at a traffic light. Impressive, and far from OEM Porsche. And that's a turbo'd car. I don't think we would be having this AM exhaust/warranty discussion if Porsche had equipped their Turbo cars with an exhaust at par with the car itself. I can't see why a Carrera S should sound better than a TT or TTS. But maybe most people (perhaps not in this forum) prefer the muffled exhaust tune...

phillipj

You are so right.. The real problem with the 997 TT is that it's a 6 cylinder turbo. All you have to do is watch F1 this year and hear the exhaust note on the new spec Turbo 6 cylinder engines. It's awful. Really awful..

It's very hard to make a 6 cylinder turbo engine sound good. An 8 cylinder turbo is a different story. Take the MP4 you spoke of. I had the pleasure of driving one of those for a few days last year. The exhaust note is amazing. I absolutely loved that car. But sadly I cannot afford one. And like you said who knows how long McLaren will want to stay in the passenger car business.

I agree that Porsche could have made and exhaust that sounded better if they wanted to. It obviously can be done. And based on the delicious shrill of a 07 or 2010 GT3 it can't be just because of sound restrictions in the EU alone.

Maybe it's the same logic as not putting an MP3 jack in a $150k (2007,2008) car...(That still pisses me off) Maybe the Germans think the stock is exhaust is great and we should like it..

Thanks for your insight.. Very well written..

TT Surgeon

The (we) Germans do like loud exhausts, it's just that there are very strict noise restrictions in Europe. I know they toyed with the idea if a sport exhaust on the 997tts, but it didn't produce a sound up to Porsche standards, ie drone.

flyjets

I'm on a 1st name bases with the GM and SM of my local dealer. Bought numerous P cars from them.
They showed me there new computers and told me Porsche means business with warranty claims.

I'm leaving it alone and when the 991TTS price gets to 140K I will pick up one of them.

In the mean time no warranty worries. But a quiet exhaust in normal driving the good news when I punch it it still roars.

Ian

speed21

Your point is generally accepted but I doubt anyone's job would be on the line as dealerships control the employment of their own staff... unless of course Porsche HQ owns the particular dealership. That said I still maintain the strength of the relationship and the comfort the senior staff that matter within the dealership hold over the mod in particular would determine the outcome of which direction they took in an engine or driveline failure.

In the case of an engine failure it would be no trouble at all to have the stock system put back on if the delaer felt it would be frowned upon by any outside visiting rep from Porsche HQ. Again the client/dealer relationship comes into play and the dealers faith in the mod in terms of knowing it had nothing to do with the failure.

I would agree if the dealer knew any mod was a contributing factor they would hardly run the risk of exposing themselves, therefore would draw the line regardless of any relationship.

In so far as VAG and dfi issues, Porsche engines have not manifested this issue at this point in time. DFI delivers a more advanced combustion cycle and is used by all of the high end marques these days, none of which have any such cases to report on either (it would so far appear).

I think in the states where these cars can be bought for a song it goes without saying there will be more of them in the traffic. But like all brands at one point the speciality factor wears off and in todays age of a more environmetally conscious population many are no longer as interested in these types of cars as how they used to be in years gone by. So I feel it is a combination of factors there. If you feel special that is all that ultimately matters really....who cares what the next person may think.

In so far as Porsches GT3 I can't see where they are making any excuses, other than pointing out the facts behind the problem as a courtesy to inform those interested of what the actual problem was. I again say that the GT3prototypes they were testing evidentally had con rod bolts from a previous batch of manufacture and, it would be hard to know that each batch of bolts was not to be of the same quality (re hardness, tensile strength, elasticity etc) without Porsche testing for that prior to assembly....and what engine manufacturer would ever do that really?

So it does come down to Porsche having a level of trust with each manufacturer that they have conducted whatever tests are required in their QA procedures prior releasing the product to Porsche for their assembly/sale.

And in so far as the new beast by all means please fire away. If you have anything negative on it I'm totally up for it, so by all means don't hold back. I don't cry easily over these types of things lol.

I tend to disagree there. A 6 and an 8 will always produce a different note as we all know. That said the Turbo 6 has been made to sound pretty damn good by certain AM manufacturers (I am too scared to mention who now LOL). I think one of the biggest draw backs has stemmed from the lower redline where as a higher revving engine can really work more of a howl up. I think the MP4 has a higher redline than Porsches 6 and that would help it. That said I do recall it said the sound was rather artificial and not that impressive by a well respected english journo. You may recall the youtube? I will say that the new DFI turbo 6 in the TTS does produce a much healthier stock note than I have heard in any previous model ive driven to date. Now that may be because of a few factors including how it revs out to 7200 so it can get itself into that sweet zone to deliver the type of scream you expect from of a high revving hi-po engine. I recall the C2S between 6800 and 7250, the engine really developed a very nice howl/scream. Now the turbo S has that zone to play with and from inside at least it sure sounds pretty damn good. I'm sure an EP will only go further in enhancing the sound especially at WOT!

Yes the 997tt.1 had a real drone problem for sure. It does seem that the new breed of engines have dealt with the drone far more effectively but that is most likely down to the different engine design i would say.

JayinToronto

Interesting post from someone over on the 997 GT2/GT3 forum where they are having a discussion about warranties. I PM'd the guy with a link to our thread and asked him to elaborate on that experience over here in our forum.

I quote,

"total crap. when DFI came out their was a big stink about build up and exhausts... but i actually got a letter from porsche saying they would honor claims w/ exhaust as long as the cats were not touched/altered... (so no headers, no cats)...

it's my understanding that after the cats is ok.. which would mean center pipe ok."

speed21

Then akrapovic may be a good option for you Jay as they do a centre pipe muffler for this .2tt car. Akra being an oem supplier to Porsche may also sit well with your dealer. The Europipe is a full system but their cats are EPA compliant, http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/9...ml#post3954335 more than even the oem cats plus the 100 CEL really improve the spool up. This system also looks stock, actually much much better, which will also keep the dealer happy. For me it would be a toss up between these two options but being a big fan of the EP that would be my pick especially for the money which makes it an absolute bargain when you look at what it does and what it represents vs what else is out there.

The DFI stink is a whole lot of dust and paranoia being kicked up by naysayers of the DFI technology which coincidentally happens to be in later model P cars which these guys don't own lol. Where are all the DFI Ferrari and Porsche engines that are choked up? Let's see em. Just one will do.

TT Surgeon

The OP asked a legitimate question, I and others chimed in with what we knew, not naysaying, just giving him information from which he can make his own decision. I think the dfi is fine and here to stay, I know, I had one, just be aware warranty policies with PCNA have changed.
I think this horse is sufficiently flogged

Domer911

I sold a 997.2 C4S back to the dealer with EVOMs AM exhaust, and the dealer CPOd the car and sold it again inside of a month. They knew about the AM cans, and opted not to bother with returning it to stock, despite my offer to include the stock cans. Acted like it was more of a hassle than it was worth. fyi. Still have the stock cans in my attic.

phillipj

Yep.. But I still stick with my opinion. There is no good sounding 6 cylinder turbo.

By the way Speed the new F1 engine turns 15k RPM and still sounds like crap.