Driving tips for a GT3
12-12-2022, 09:27 AM
#46
Rennlist Member
I don’t have nearly the track experience you do but I can give my novice experience.
The understeer on wide and fast is present but I use it to learn more car control, my friends just love to drift this car and I just don’t have the skills to force it. So when I want to practice I leave my old PSC2 on… however with warmed up R888 its not something I have to actively think about, canyons I use newer PSC2.
I have the DSC on mine because I just don’t have the time for a 3-way or something of the like, it did give me a little more confidence. I do also have RSS LCAs on the front as I run a little negative and I don’t put enough miles to see any extra tire wear in the canyons.
I will say that my track prepped GT4 friends do ask me a lot why I even bother, given how much more “thinking” and “trying” I do than them. It’s prob the same reason I wrench my own car, it’s the process that I enjoy.
Bring both sets of tires… when you get sick of getting spanked on day two throw the slicks on to end the session in a smile… or the gravel
The understeer on wide and fast is present but I use it to learn more car control, my friends just love to drift this car and I just don’t have the skills to force it. So when I want to practice I leave my old PSC2 on… however with warmed up R888 its not something I have to actively think about, canyons I use newer PSC2.
I have the DSC on mine because I just don’t have the time for a 3-way or something of the like, it did give me a little more confidence. I do also have RSS LCAs on the front as I run a little negative and I don’t put enough miles to see any extra tire wear in the canyons.
I will say that my track prepped GT4 friends do ask me a lot why I even bother, given how much more “thinking” and “trying” I do than them. It’s prob the same reason I wrench my own car, it’s the process that I enjoy.
Bring both sets of tires… when you get sick of getting spanked on day two throw the slicks on to end the session in a smile… or the gravel
Last edited by Wonderdan; 12-12-2022 at 09:30 AM.
12-12-2022, 09:57 AM
#47
Rennlist Member
Forgive the 5-year old resurrection, but came across this thread while scratching my head in frustration and humility in the hotel room after my first weekend tracking my 7.2 GT3.
First off, super cool to see some of the same 997GT forum players on this thread as far back as '15. That bodes well for the "never sell" sentiment with these cars. Also cool to recognize some folks whose bonkers fast GT3 maneuvering I've gawked at as they flew by me on track. Ahem . . . @AudiOn19s . . . Lots of great information here, but wanted to see if I could reengage the 997 Track Lords for a few clarifications.
Context - 15 years track experience starting with AutoX in beaters, up to now with my dedicated GT4. This weekend was my first time out in the GT3, with a view towards evaluating if I want to switch from the 4 to the 3 as my primary track car (separate, but related thread here: https://rennlist.com/forums/997-gt2-...93-or-gt4.html). GT3 is bone-*** stock except exhaust, tune, and pinned lines. Ran on 5 year old PSSs, stock pads, fluid, etc. No telling when its last alignment was, or what the specs were. Suffice it to say very street oriented with marginal camber.
Almost everything from this thread and others on 997GT track setup makes sense, and resonates with what I glimpsed on track yesterday (today was rained out). Within a few laps, I felt a lot of these observations, and now as I process the experience, I'm starting to understand:
(i) brake hard, smooth, and straight, or else . . .;
(i) do NOT lift;
(iii) trust the power out traction (got this conceptually, but Jesus, that's gonna take some stones to employ . . .);
(iv) fore-aft weight balance is everything (and I suck at it);
(v) throttle application is mad sensitive and will ruin a turn if it's wrong;
(vi) SMOOTH or go home.
However, there are some things here (and from alignment threads) that either don't have consensus, or that still just don't make sense to me. Will start with the main issue:
Managing understeer - This was probably the most frustrating characteristic I encountered (and failed to remedy). I immediately pushed the nose all over the place. I'm sure old tires and GT4 brain didn't help, but I could NOT get the car to settle up front. I played with early and late apex, and started to approximate some composure, but it just never came together. I'm seeing 2 schools of thought here - @mooty and others advocate SLOW entry, but others say charge the turn-in, power through the understeer to get rotated, take a set, then power out post-apex. Others insist trail-braking is the only solution. I organically tried a little of each of these approaches, but nothing felt right. Occasionally I'd slow enough to prevent the push on turn-in, but then - especially on double apex sets - the car pushed so wide after apex I had no choice but to baby the throttle through a sh*t line until fully tracked out and straight again. Felt terrible.
So what gives? What's my approach? Carrying more speed on turn-in with trail brake modulation? Ignore the dynamic and manhandle the car with throttle to provoke rotation ? More throttle on turn-in / sooner than I'm used to? Slowing to a crawl for entry and then powering out ?
Also, someone in an understeer thread harped on needing to rotate the control arm bushings (??) before an alignment could even be meaningful. Is that a thing? Anyone ?
Also also - while I'm at it, now seems like a good time to ask for an updated - what are my basic track work alignment and suspension targets for this car?
As always, massively appreciate the wisdom and input here.
First off, super cool to see some of the same 997GT forum players on this thread as far back as '15. That bodes well for the "never sell" sentiment with these cars. Also cool to recognize some folks whose bonkers fast GT3 maneuvering I've gawked at as they flew by me on track. Ahem . . . @AudiOn19s . . . Lots of great information here, but wanted to see if I could reengage the 997 Track Lords for a few clarifications.
Context - 15 years track experience starting with AutoX in beaters, up to now with my dedicated GT4. This weekend was my first time out in the GT3, with a view towards evaluating if I want to switch from the 4 to the 3 as my primary track car (separate, but related thread here: https://rennlist.com/forums/997-gt2-...93-or-gt4.html). GT3 is bone-*** stock except exhaust, tune, and pinned lines. Ran on 5 year old PSSs, stock pads, fluid, etc. No telling when its last alignment was, or what the specs were. Suffice it to say very street oriented with marginal camber.
Almost everything from this thread and others on 997GT track setup makes sense, and resonates with what I glimpsed on track yesterday (today was rained out). Within a few laps, I felt a lot of these observations, and now as I process the experience, I'm starting to understand:
(i) brake hard, smooth, and straight, or else . . .;
(i) do NOT lift;
(iii) trust the power out traction (got this conceptually, but Jesus, that's gonna take some stones to employ . . .);
(iv) fore-aft weight balance is everything (and I suck at it);
(v) throttle application is mad sensitive and will ruin a turn if it's wrong;
(vi) SMOOTH or go home.
However, there are some things here (and from alignment threads) that either don't have consensus, or that still just don't make sense to me. Will start with the main issue:
Managing understeer - This was probably the most frustrating characteristic I encountered (and failed to remedy). I immediately pushed the nose all over the place. I'm sure old tires and GT4 brain didn't help, but I could NOT get the car to settle up front. I played with early and late apex, and started to approximate some composure, but it just never came together. I'm seeing 2 schools of thought here - @mooty and others advocate SLOW entry, but others say charge the turn-in, power through the understeer to get rotated, take a set, then power out post-apex. Others insist trail-braking is the only solution. I organically tried a little of each of these approaches, but nothing felt right. Occasionally I'd slow enough to prevent the push on turn-in, but then - especially on double apex sets - the car pushed so wide after apex I had no choice but to baby the throttle through a sh*t line until fully tracked out and straight again. Felt terrible.
So what gives? What's my approach? Carrying more speed on turn-in with trail brake modulation? Ignore the dynamic and manhandle the car with throttle to provoke rotation ? More throttle on turn-in / sooner than I'm used to? Slowing to a crawl for entry and then powering out ?
Also, someone in an understeer thread harped on needing to rotate the control arm bushings (??) before an alignment could even be meaningful. Is that a thing? Anyone ?
Also also - while I'm at it, now seems like a good time to ask for an updated - what are my basic track work alignment and suspension targets for this car?
As always, massively appreciate the wisdom and input here.
The following 3 users liked this post by RAudi Driver:
12-12-2022, 10:00 AM
#48
Rennlist Member
As others have siad, these cars are way fast for the street. We have a 997.2 GT3 and a 981 S, and honsetly the 981 is way more than needed for a public road. Take it easy, and learn at your own pace. I think if you've always wanted the GT3, you should get one. If you really end up not liking it, you can always resell and try the GT4 or something else.
@Wonderdan I love the process too, and am looking forward to tinkering with the setup. Just want to make sure I'm going in armed with the best possible mental framework for this platform, and I have a lot of muscle memory to adapt from years of the Cayman / GT4 chassis dynamics. That car is far more forgiving at the limits than this.
@RAudi Driver I had a feeling you guys might say that. I actually edited last night to add the request for generally accepted serious track specs for the car. Would love to see what the consensus is there.
Last edited by jreifler; 12-12-2022 at 10:04 AM.
12-12-2022, 11:10 AM
#49
Rennlist Member
Tires and a proper alignment will transform the car. You won't even think you're in the same car. That's the issue you're having. Don't think about any of that other stuff until you get the car sorted. It's crazy how this car needs for those things to be in perfect order for the car to work.
Once you take the setup variables out of the equation, I think you'll find the car challenging, fun and faster than you might think.
Good luck!
The following 4 users liked this post by ChrisF:
12-12-2022, 03:12 PM
#50
Rennlist Member
Just want to vouch for alignment / proper kinematics.
I remember having feelings of doubt the few times I did some spirited driving before having my car properly set up.
Afterwards, it was baffling just how differently the car behaved and felt. Never once experienced the doubt or regret again- as a matter of fact only the opposite.
I have front and rear Tarett sway bar drop links and tension links and a great setup and it’s been amazing for any style of driving I find myself in.
Car will see track soon.
I remember having feelings of doubt the few times I did some spirited driving before having my car properly set up.
Afterwards, it was baffling just how differently the car behaved and felt. Never once experienced the doubt or regret again- as a matter of fact only the opposite.
I have front and rear Tarett sway bar drop links and tension links and a great setup and it’s been amazing for any style of driving I find myself in.
Car will see track soon.
The following users liked this post:
jreifler (12-12-2022)
12-12-2022, 03:42 PM
#51
Rennlist Member
Just want to vouch for alignment / proper kinematics.
I remember having feelings of doubt the few times I did some spirited driving before having my car properly set up.
Afterwards, it was baffling just how differently the car behaved and felt. Never once experienced the doubt or regret again- as a matter of fact only the opposite.
I have front and rear Tarett sway bar drop links and tension links and a great setup and it’s been amazing for any style of driving I find myself in.
Car will see track soon.
I remember having feelings of doubt the few times I did some spirited driving before having my car properly set up.
Afterwards, it was baffling just how differently the car behaved and felt. Never once experienced the doubt or regret again- as a matter of fact only the opposite.
I have front and rear Tarett sway bar drop links and tension links and a great setup and it’s been amazing for any style of driving I find myself in.
Car will see track soon.
The following users liked this post:
ljmartyre (12-13-2022)
12-13-2022, 12:34 AM
#52
Rennlist Member
You might have already stated but can you post the tire date codes?
12-13-2022, 10:26 AM
#53
Rennlist Member
What tires does everyone like on these for track? I found a lot of older threads, but nothing recent. I was going to give Cup 2s a shot in 245 / 315. NT01s and R888Rs only seem to be available in 325 rear sections and it seems counterintuitive to go even wider in the rear on a car that understeers.
Last edited by jreifler; 12-13-2022 at 10:28 AM.
12-13-2022, 11:45 AM
#54
Rennlist Member
I have Falken RT660, which feel solid with lots of grip however they run wide. I'd avoid r888r. NT01 are great mid level tire that have grip to the cords but are a bit of ancient tech at this point. Goodyear supercar 3r, Yokohama A052 and Bridgestone RE71R are the top runners right now.
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jreifler (12-13-2022)
12-13-2022, 12:08 PM
#55
Rennlist Member
I have Falken RT660, which feel solid with lots of grip however they run wide. I'd avoid r888r. NT01 are great mid level tire that have grip to the cords but are a bit of ancient tech at this point. Goodyear supercar 3r, Yokohama A052 and Bridgestone RE71R are the top runners right now.
12-13-2022, 03:38 PM
#56
Quit Smokin'
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I didn't see that this thread had been revived from the dead when I replied to it.
I see now that you're asking about different driving styles. The one additional thing that I will mention is that as driving styles changed for me, the sway bar positions also needed to change. When I was doing mostly straight line braking and then turning the car, I needed more rear sway bar, and softer front bar. Something like 3/4 soft front and at least middle on the rear. This can make the car feel a little nervous if you carry the braking a little too far. When I started to deliberately work on charging the corner, and turning the car on a trail brake, I moved to full soft rear bar, and middle on the front. If you get a little out of the groove on this setup it can feel pretty pushy, but it's also pretty safe and confident feeling. You can work out from there and get more agressive with the bars.
The thing about the GT3 is; on the days you get the setup just right, there is no other car like it in the world. If you miss the setup just a small amount, it becomes mostly a struggle. I find the window to be fairly narrow. If you get it dialed in for even just one day where the car is working like it should, you will be hooked.
I see now that you're asking about different driving styles. The one additional thing that I will mention is that as driving styles changed for me, the sway bar positions also needed to change. When I was doing mostly straight line braking and then turning the car, I needed more rear sway bar, and softer front bar. Something like 3/4 soft front and at least middle on the rear. This can make the car feel a little nervous if you carry the braking a little too far. When I started to deliberately work on charging the corner, and turning the car on a trail brake, I moved to full soft rear bar, and middle on the front. If you get a little out of the groove on this setup it can feel pretty pushy, but it's also pretty safe and confident feeling. You can work out from there and get more agressive with the bars.
The thing about the GT3 is; on the days you get the setup just right, there is no other car like it in the world. If you miss the setup just a small amount, it becomes mostly a struggle. I find the window to be fairly narrow. If you get it dialed in for even just one day where the car is working like it should, you will be hooked.
12-14-2022, 10:04 AM
#57
I have Falken RT660, which feel solid with lots of grip however they run wide. I'd avoid r888r. NT01 are great mid level tire that have grip to the cords but are a bit of ancient tech at this point. Goodyear supercar 3r, Yokohama A052 and Bridgestone RE71R are the top runners right now.
Last edited by DD GT3 RD; 12-14-2022 at 10:07 AM.
12-14-2022, 10:15 AM
#58
Rennlist Member
I have Falken RT660, which feel solid with lots of grip however they run wide. I'd avoid r888r. NT01 are great mid level tire that have grip to the cords but are a bit of ancient tech at this point. Goodyear supercar 3r, Yokohama A052 and Bridgestone RE71R are the top runners right now.
Last edited by Wonderdan; 12-14-2022 at 10:23 AM.
12-14-2022, 10:25 AM
#59
Rennlist Member
My initial thought was that I should learn this car on street tires before moving up to my normal R7 track preference. I still think that's the right approach, and in that respect I might just try out Cup2s for a half season. Seems like the Bridgestone, Toyo, and Nitto options are really R7 alternatives for most folks.
12-14-2022, 10:32 AM
#60
Rennlist Member
My initial thought was that I should learn this car on street tires before moving up to my normal R7 track preference. I still think that's the right approach, and in that respect I might just try out Cup2s for a half season. Seems like the Bridgestone, Toyo, and Nitto options are really R7 alternatives for most folks.