Driving tips for a GT3
10-21-2015, 07:28 PM
#31
i used to track an integra type -r and done only 3 days in my GT3.
There are more similarities than you would think, but can lift-snap oversteer, both can understeer. The most awesome thing i learned in my GT3 is trail braking and how much front end grip there was when the nose dived a bit, especially on uphill turns like turn 3 at sonoma or 9 at thill.
the above about backroads is true. In the bay area hlils, i'm sure i'm faster in a miata than the GT3
There are more similarities than you would think, but can lift-snap oversteer, both can understeer. The most awesome thing i learned in my GT3 is trail braking and how much front end grip there was when the nose dived a bit, especially on uphill turns like turn 3 at sonoma or 9 at thill.
the above about backroads is true. In the bay area hlils, i'm sure i'm faster in a miata than the GT3
10-23-2015, 11:51 AM
#32
Drifting
Even when you're supposed to be off the gas you still need to be on the gas a tiny tiny bit or you will go backwards. Be pretty adept at counter steering and have good car control. I would not start with a GT3. I've tracked a lot of cars (M3, Elise, S2000, GT-R, Cayman S) and the GT3 is the hardest to drive fast.
10-23-2015, 12:15 PM
#33
997 is a great car to master
Some good advice given, some advice I don't agree with. Depends how fast you want to go.
To achieve maximum pace in the car:
1) Brake late and hard, and learn to downshift
2) Trail brake to apex. That doesn't mean mash the brake pedal while turning in, that means have the sensitivity to keep the weight on the front axle to defeat the natural understeer in the car. This whole "maintenance throttle on turn in" is not if you want to be quick.
3) Go to WOT at apex as quickly as possible. If you have to correct some power oversteer so be it, but don't lift
4) In fast corners the car tends towards oversteer; hairy scary oversteer. This is best managed by a soft right foot i.e. lack of abrupt inputs
5) In slower and medium speed corners, the fastest drivers will drive the car on its ***, as opposed to its nose.
6) If you're not on the brake or not on the throttle, i.e. coasting at any point - you're losing time.
What was written above about the car being really easy up to 85% is absolutely true. So, pursue the remaining 15% at your own peril. Especially the last 3s/lap.
Some good advice given, some advice I don't agree with. Depends how fast you want to go.
To achieve maximum pace in the car:
1) Brake late and hard, and learn to downshift
2) Trail brake to apex. That doesn't mean mash the brake pedal while turning in, that means have the sensitivity to keep the weight on the front axle to defeat the natural understeer in the car. This whole "maintenance throttle on turn in" is not if you want to be quick.
3) Go to WOT at apex as quickly as possible. If you have to correct some power oversteer so be it, but don't lift
4) In fast corners the car tends towards oversteer; hairy scary oversteer. This is best managed by a soft right foot i.e. lack of abrupt inputs
5) In slower and medium speed corners, the fastest drivers will drive the car on its ***, as opposed to its nose.
6) If you're not on the brake or not on the throttle, i.e. coasting at any point - you're losing time.
What was written above about the car being really easy up to 85% is absolutely true. So, pursue the remaining 15% at your own peril. Especially the last 3s/lap.
10-23-2015, 02:12 PM
#34
Baby steps...
bk_911..did you mention what you are driving now? While buying a GT3 is a great goal to have, consider something more manageable that you can thrash around for a few years. Maybe I'm a slow learner, but my time driving the tires off under powered sedans and sports cars, made the transition to faster machines much easier. In my case...'69 BMW 2002 > '72 Datsun 510 > '70 Porsche 911S > '73 2.8 Carrera > '74 3.0 RSR > '77 934.5 > '81 Kremer 935.
As Bill Murray said in the movie "What About Bob", "Baby steps..."
As Bill Murray said in the movie "What About Bob", "Baby steps..."
10-23-2015, 03:43 PM
#35
A more recent GT3 .1 owner that did some track events with PCA in instructed Green and solo Yellow and Blue combined groups with a 2003 C4S. I pushed the C4S on spirited public twisty road drives after about a year of driving it. I just started pushing the GT3 on back public roads, and like one RL member said, that means mainly 2nd and 3rd gear, but with MPSCup2s, I found GT3 to be as stable and glued as the AWD C4S. I consider myself not to be stupid in my cars, and what you learn at the track will help you enjoy the GT3 on the street also as you pick your spots.
I am still in great respect of the power and high revving engine, but the GT3 is incredibly stable.
Good luck with your decision.
I am still in great respect of the power and high revving engine, but the GT3 is incredibly stable.
Good luck with your decision.
10-23-2015, 05:10 PM
#36
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My son and I have not put our GT3 on a race track, even for a DE, and likely won't. Our PCCB's are perfect, and I just don't have the $ to put steel discs on the car, and besides, for me, tracking is one of those "been there, done that" sort of life experiences. Even retired, there is only so much time and money for one's hobbies and interests.
But I was thinking about the 85% or 8/10's of our car's performance, and out cruising on the lovely, winding Upstate Roads of SC, and without any track time in our car to learn where those limits are, I have to realize that my own, say, 85% or 8/10's may be only 40% or 4/10's of the car's potential in the right hands.
I have learned a lot about life, and myself, as i have neared 70 years old, and one very important life lesson is to know one's limitations. When I was young and singe, i didn't think much about fear and consequence, but rather the adventure and excitement of my life. Now, when thinking about this or that endeavor, I am more apt to ponder "what could go wrong with this activity."
Anyway, in about an hour or so will put a few guns in our GT3, especially the H&K VP9 I picked up yesterday, and head down to Columbia, where I will meet up with my son. We will shoot a bit, have a beer and a pizza, or perhaps visit this great Thi or Indian restaurant he knows about, then drive back home later.
and all the best.....
NV
But I was thinking about the 85% or 8/10's of our car's performance, and out cruising on the lovely, winding Upstate Roads of SC, and without any track time in our car to learn where those limits are, I have to realize that my own, say, 85% or 8/10's may be only 40% or 4/10's of the car's potential in the right hands.
I have learned a lot about life, and myself, as i have neared 70 years old, and one very important life lesson is to know one's limitations. When I was young and singe, i didn't think much about fear and consequence, but rather the adventure and excitement of my life. Now, when thinking about this or that endeavor, I am more apt to ponder "what could go wrong with this activity."
Anyway, in about an hour or so will put a few guns in our GT3, especially the H&K VP9 I picked up yesterday, and head down to Columbia, where I will meet up with my son. We will shoot a bit, have a beer and a pizza, or perhaps visit this great Thi or Indian restaurant he knows about, then drive back home later.
and all the best.....
NV
10-23-2015, 10:34 PM
#37
Rennlist Member
The internet rumor that PCCBs cannot be tracked is just that, a rumor. It's steeped in experiences from gen 1 examples (996) and OEM pads. PCCB on a 997 with Pagid RSC pads can absolutely be tracked without breaking the bank.
I've measured my PCCB rotors after a few track days and found no signs of wear, and I tend to drive at the pointy end of the field. If this is your only track car and you go every month, maybe it adds up. But for occasional use there they work beautifully and can take the abuse. No need to run off and convert to steel.
I've measured my PCCB rotors after a few track days and found no signs of wear, and I tend to drive at the pointy end of the field. If this is your only track car and you go every month, maybe it adds up. But for occasional use there they work beautifully and can take the abuse. No need to run off and convert to steel.
10-24-2015, 12:36 AM
#38
Drifting
The internet rumor that PCCBs cannot be tracked is just that, a rumor. It's steeped in experiences from gen 1 examples (996) and OEM pads. PCCB on a 997 with Pagid RSC pads can absolutely be tracked without breaking the bank.
I've measured my PCCB rotors after a few track days and found no signs of wear, and I tend to drive at the pointy end of the field. If this is your only track car and you go every month, maybe it adds up. But for occasional use there they work beautifully and can take the abuse. No need to run off and convert to steel.
I've measured my PCCB rotors after a few track days and found no signs of wear, and I tend to drive at the pointy end of the field. If this is your only track car and you go every month, maybe it adds up. But for occasional use there they work beautifully and can take the abuse. No need to run off and convert to steel.
10-24-2015, 12:49 AM
#39
Rennlist Member
The internet rumor that PCCBs cannot be tracked is just that, a rumor. It's steeped in experiences from gen 1 examples (996) and OEM pads. PCCB on a 997 with Pagid RSC pads can absolutely be tracked without breaking the bank.
I've measured my PCCB rotors after a few track days and found no signs of wear, and I tend to drive at the pointy end of the field. If this is your only track car and you go every month, maybe it adds up. But for occasional use there they work beautifully and can take the abuse. No need to run off and convert to steel.
I've measured my PCCB rotors after a few track days and found no signs of wear, and I tend to drive at the pointy end of the field. If this is your only track car and you go every month, maybe it adds up. But for occasional use there they work beautifully and can take the abuse. No need to run off and convert to steel.
09-12-2017, 04:23 AM
#41
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
What a cool old thread with some RL all-stars and heavy hitters. So I took a more round about path. I bought a GT4 after attempting to decide to get a GT3 or not. I was somewhat intimidated by the GT3. The GT4 ended up being good Porsche training wheels for me. I tracked that car a few times and had quite a few good back road blasts in it. (Within reason of course.)
But I still kept thinking about the GT3. Fast forward to a few weeks ago Golfnutintib put his '10 GT3 up for sale (also ChrisF's former 'Mila' haha). I'm taking it to it's first track day on the 17th @ TH this weekend. I hope to see a few of you out there.
I've had the GT3 carefully up in the hills a few times already. I've made it a point to make sure to keep my inputs smooth, and be careful with the car. The truth is this car gets me way more excited than the GT4 did. It's just got that extra something the GT4 doesn't have. I also found like others stated here the GT3 just talks to you so much you always have a good idea of what's going on. I can listen to the car and trust it.
And yes, when you see me I"ll be slow. I'll point everyone by while I get adjusted to the car on track. The good news is I'm familiar with TH 3 mile. I'll be in the 'B' group so come by and say HI if you're there.
But I still kept thinking about the GT3. Fast forward to a few weeks ago Golfnutintib put his '10 GT3 up for sale (also ChrisF's former 'Mila' haha). I'm taking it to it's first track day on the 17th @ TH this weekend. I hope to see a few of you out there.
I've had the GT3 carefully up in the hills a few times already. I've made it a point to make sure to keep my inputs smooth, and be careful with the car. The truth is this car gets me way more excited than the GT4 did. It's just got that extra something the GT4 doesn't have. I also found like others stated here the GT3 just talks to you so much you always have a good idea of what's going on. I can listen to the car and trust it.
And yes, when you see me I"ll be slow. I'll point everyone by while I get adjusted to the car on track. The good news is I'm familiar with TH 3 mile. I'll be in the 'B' group so come by and say HI if you're there.
12-11-2022, 07:02 PM
#42
Rennlist Member
Forgive the 5-year old resurrection, but came across this thread while scratching my head in frustration and humility in the hotel room after my first weekend tracking my 7.2 GT3.
First off, super cool to see some of the same 997GT forum players on this thread as far back as '15. That bodes well for the "never sell" sentiment with these cars. Also cool to recognize some folks whose bonkers fast GT3 maneuvering I've gawked at as they flew by me on track. Ahem . . . @AudiOn19s . . . Lots of great information here, but wanted to see if I could reengage the 997 Track Lords for a few clarifications.
Context - 15 years track experience starting with AutoX in beaters, up to now with my dedicated GT4. This weekend was my first time out in the GT3, with a view towards evaluating if I want to switch from the 4 to the 3 as my primary track car (separate, but related thread here: https://rennlist.com/forums/997-gt2-...93-or-gt4.html). GT3 is bone-*** stock except exhaust, tune, and pinned lines. Ran on 5 year old PSSs, stock pads, fluid, etc. No telling when its last alignment was, or what the specs were. Suffice it to say very street oriented with marginal camber.
Almost everything from this thread and others on 997GT track setup makes sense, and resonates with what I glimpsed on track yesterday (today was rained out). Within a few laps, I felt a lot of these observations, and now as I process the experience, I'm starting to understand:
(i) brake hard, smooth, and straight, or else . . .;
(i) do NOT lift;
(iii) trust the power out traction (got this conceptually, but Jesus, that's gonna take some stones to employ . . .);
(iv) fore-aft weight balance is everything (and I suck at it);
(v) throttle application is mad sensitive and will ruin a turn if it's wrong;
(vi) SMOOTH or go home.
However, there are some things here (and from alignment threads) that either don't have consensus, or that still just don't make sense to me. Will start with the main issue:
Managing understeer - This was probably the most frustrating characteristic I encountered (and failed to remedy). I immediately pushed the nose all over the place. I'm sure old tires and GT4 brain didn't help, but I could NOT get the car to settle up front. I played with early and late apex, and started to approximate some composure, but it just never came together. I'm seeing 2 schools of thought here - @mooty and others advocate SLOW entry, but others say charge the turn-in, power through the understeer to get rotated, take a set, then power out post-apex. Others insist trail-braking is the only solution. I organically tried a little of each of these approaches, but nothing felt right. Occasionally I'd slow enough to prevent the push on turn-in, but then - especially on double apex sets - the car pushed so wide after apex I had no choice but to baby the throttle through a sh*t line until fully tracked out and straight again. Felt terrible.
So what gives? What's my approach? Carrying more speed on turn-in with trail brake modulation? Ignore the dynamic and manhandle the car with throttle to provoke rotation ? More throttle on turn-in / sooner than I'm used to? Slowing to a crawl for entry and then powering out ?
Also, someone in an understeer thread harped on needing to rotate the control arm bushings (??) before an alignment could even be meaningful. Is that a thing? Anyone ?
Also also - while I'm at it, now seems like a good time to ask for an updated - what are my basic track work alignment and suspension targets for this car?
As always, massively appreciate the wisdom and input here.
First off, super cool to see some of the same 997GT forum players on this thread as far back as '15. That bodes well for the "never sell" sentiment with these cars. Also cool to recognize some folks whose bonkers fast GT3 maneuvering I've gawked at as they flew by me on track. Ahem . . . @AudiOn19s . . . Lots of great information here, but wanted to see if I could reengage the 997 Track Lords for a few clarifications.
Context - 15 years track experience starting with AutoX in beaters, up to now with my dedicated GT4. This weekend was my first time out in the GT3, with a view towards evaluating if I want to switch from the 4 to the 3 as my primary track car (separate, but related thread here: https://rennlist.com/forums/997-gt2-...93-or-gt4.html). GT3 is bone-*** stock except exhaust, tune, and pinned lines. Ran on 5 year old PSSs, stock pads, fluid, etc. No telling when its last alignment was, or what the specs were. Suffice it to say very street oriented with marginal camber.
Almost everything from this thread and others on 997GT track setup makes sense, and resonates with what I glimpsed on track yesterday (today was rained out). Within a few laps, I felt a lot of these observations, and now as I process the experience, I'm starting to understand:
(i) brake hard, smooth, and straight, or else . . .;
(i) do NOT lift;
(iii) trust the power out traction (got this conceptually, but Jesus, that's gonna take some stones to employ . . .);
(iv) fore-aft weight balance is everything (and I suck at it);
(v) throttle application is mad sensitive and will ruin a turn if it's wrong;
(vi) SMOOTH or go home.
However, there are some things here (and from alignment threads) that either don't have consensus, or that still just don't make sense to me. Will start with the main issue:
Managing understeer - This was probably the most frustrating characteristic I encountered (and failed to remedy). I immediately pushed the nose all over the place. I'm sure old tires and GT4 brain didn't help, but I could NOT get the car to settle up front. I played with early and late apex, and started to approximate some composure, but it just never came together. I'm seeing 2 schools of thought here - @mooty and others advocate SLOW entry, but others say charge the turn-in, power through the understeer to get rotated, take a set, then power out post-apex. Others insist trail-braking is the only solution. I organically tried a little of each of these approaches, but nothing felt right. Occasionally I'd slow enough to prevent the push on turn-in, but then - especially on double apex sets - the car pushed so wide after apex I had no choice but to baby the throttle through a sh*t line until fully tracked out and straight again. Felt terrible.
So what gives? What's my approach? Carrying more speed on turn-in with trail brake modulation? Ignore the dynamic and manhandle the car with throttle to provoke rotation ? More throttle on turn-in / sooner than I'm used to? Slowing to a crawl for entry and then powering out ?
Also, someone in an understeer thread harped on needing to rotate the control arm bushings (??) before an alignment could even be meaningful. Is that a thing? Anyone ?
Also also - while I'm at it, now seems like a good time to ask for an updated - what are my basic track work alignment and suspension targets for this car?
As always, massively appreciate the wisdom and input here.
Last edited by jreifler; 12-11-2022 at 07:10 PM.
12-12-2022, 01:31 AM
#43
Quit Smokin'
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
These are just normal cars to an extent. They have a wide range of setup from the factory with the swaybar and alignment possibilties. I've had setups and more importantly *TIRES* on the car that make the GT3 very knife edgy, but it doesn't have to be that way. It's actually pretty playful on 18" Pilot Super sport with a 245 front tire and the biggest 18" rear they make, which if i rember correctly is a 295. Getting the car setup with 235 fronts and a 315 rear, makes it have some more annoying habits, and you really have to pay attention to the way you load it up with the weight transfer to make it turn.
This may be an unpopular opinion, but especially for canyon drives, leave the freakin nannies turned on. They are a little clumsy being 10 year old technology, and they have a tendency to make you feel like not a smooth driver, but you can go VERY VERY fast with them on. If you can play a game with yourself to keep it just below the point where it starts to interfere with your fun, you can teach yourself smooth throttle and brakes, and learn about about where the limit might be. You can take the car to an autocross to turn them off, and see how it handles with a little more slip angle.
As others have siad, these cars are way fast for the street. We have a 997.2 GT3 and a 981 S, and honsetly the 981 is way more than needed for a public road. Take it easy, and learn at your own pace. I think if you've always wanted the GT3, you should get one. If you really end up not liking it, you can always resell and try the GT4 or something else.
DONT put edgy tires on the car at first, even if your buddies are turning faster lap times with them. Something with a nice wide groove that tolerates being slid around will be much more fun. I would conisder the pilot super sport, or the BFG rival (1.5S?). When I first bought my GT3, I threw a set of brand new Bridgestone RE71r tires on it and headed to the autocross. They were so edgy that at first I regretted buying the car. It was incredibly hard to drive at the limit. The next tires we put on were Rivals, and we started having a lot more fun.
This may be an unpopular opinion, but especially for canyon drives, leave the freakin nannies turned on. They are a little clumsy being 10 year old technology, and they have a tendency to make you feel like not a smooth driver, but you can go VERY VERY fast with them on. If you can play a game with yourself to keep it just below the point where it starts to interfere with your fun, you can teach yourself smooth throttle and brakes, and learn about about where the limit might be. You can take the car to an autocross to turn them off, and see how it handles with a little more slip angle.
As others have siad, these cars are way fast for the street. We have a 997.2 GT3 and a 981 S, and honsetly the 981 is way more than needed for a public road. Take it easy, and learn at your own pace. I think if you've always wanted the GT3, you should get one. If you really end up not liking it, you can always resell and try the GT4 or something else.
DONT put edgy tires on the car at first, even if your buddies are turning faster lap times with them. Something with a nice wide groove that tolerates being slid around will be much more fun. I would conisder the pilot super sport, or the BFG rival (1.5S?). When I first bought my GT3, I threw a set of brand new Bridgestone RE71r tires on it and headed to the autocross. They were so edgy that at first I regretted buying the car. It was incredibly hard to drive at the limit. The next tires we put on were Rivals, and we started having a lot more fun.
Last edited by Auto_Werks 3.6; 12-12-2022 at 01:34 AM.
12-12-2022, 01:45 AM
#44
Rennlist Member
I drive a lot of cars both on and off track. This past weekend I took my .2 GT3RS out on track for the first time and also drove a TCR Civic Type R and an e90 M3 (RR, FF & FR). It drives a lot like any other car until you are at the absolute limit, where some understeer is present. Don't be intimidated but respect the car. It doesn't have any wild characteristics that will surprise you. Go out, have fun and learn where to adapt and improve!
12-12-2022, 01:56 AM
#45
Rennlist Member
Thanks for resurrecting this. Read and subscribed.
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