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OFFICIAL DSC SPORT DISCUSSION FORUM

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Old 02-03-2015, 06:12 PM   #1
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Default OFFICIAL DSC SPORT DISCUSSION FORUM



Over the last few months, DSC Sport has been gaining a lot of traction (no pun intended) as we are officially launching the brand. We are thrilled with the unanimously positive feedback we have received from both enthusiasts and experts alike after introducing DSC Sport at the 2014 Performance Racing Industry (PRI) trade show in December and on 6speedonline forums in January. As many of our readers still have a lot of questions, and some of our readers have already tried DSC for themselves as part of our pre-launch program and may have answers, we would like to create an official discussion forum for DSC Sport.

We ask that if you have any questions or reviews regarding DSC Sport that you post them here. If you have already posted reviews in other forums or threads, we encourage you to do so once more in this thread. Consolidating our discussion topics into an official thread will allow us to respond to questions in a timelier manner, as well as include everybody in the conversation. We would like to thank our loyal customer base once more for their unprecedented level of enthusiasm and rave reviews for DSC Sport as we launch this exciting new product.

For more information on the DSC Sport brand and available products, please visit our product introduction on 6speedonline or visit our website:
www.dscsport.com
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Old 02-03-2015, 06:32 PM   #2
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Can you share the results of the testing on the 997 gt3 cup cars this last weekend and any data showing improvements with the DSC + Tractive DDA suspension setup. Ive been in talks with Harris regarding this setup for my 997.1 GT3 which is a dual duty street/track car, as Ive also been considering Bilstein Clubsports and JRZ DAs. Do you have any data comparing the DSC + Tractive DDA against OEM and against other high end aftermarket shocks
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Old 02-03-2015, 11:30 PM   #3
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Default TPC Racing, DSC & DMTD Sebring

I'd like to express my sincere thanks and give a shout out to Mike, Harris, Doug, Brian and Randy Pobst of TPC Racing after spending some time with them last week at DMTD Sebring. I’ve read all of Tom Chan’s RL posts about his GT3 build and everything I could find on TPC’s DSC suspension controller. I’ve also had some PM conversations with Tom but had never met Mike, Harris or any of the TPC crew.

David Murry pointed Mike and Harris out at the drivers’ meeting and told everyone where they were setup in the paddock. I went over mid – morning on the first day and introduced myself to Mike, who immediately introduced me to everyone else. Twenty minutes later Randy was taking my 997.2 C2S out for few laps to feel it out and gather data for me to use as a baseline. He came back with some handling feedback that he shared with Mike, Harris and I. This car has SPASM and is completely stock except for 997.1 GT3 sway bars and Tarret drop links. It has a street alignment and so there wasn’t much that could be adjusted on the spot to improve the handling. They did tighten up the front bar and loosen the rear which helped.

The guys then installed a DSC for me to try. Harris said to use it for both days and report back to them. I stopped by the following day and Mike asked Doug to load the beta software they’ve been working on. I can’t say I could tell the difference between the two versions but the difference between DSC and no DSC is pretty dramatic, especially at rough and bumpy Sebring International. I could definitely feel the loaded side of the suspension stiffen when cornering and there was much less dive under hard braking into 7, 10 and 17.

I think the most noticeable difference though was over the bumps in 17. The car felt significantly more stable and planted allowing a slow guy like me to get to power sooner. Muscle memory kept me from maximizing the new found stability but I’m confident more laps would overcome that. Randy went out again the second day with the DSC installed (and with a passenger this time) and picked up a second over his quick lap the day before without DSC even though there was increased traffic.

The whole TPC crew treated me like a long term customer even though we had just met and they had six customer cars there. Plus they were working hard developing the DSC Sport/Tractive DDA Suspension System on their two Cup cars. They are truly great guys and I hope Tom will be with them next year! DSC is definitely worth a try if you have suitable shocks. Pulling the PASM module and replacing it with the DSC takes less than two minutes so give it a try. I believe quicker drivers will benefit even more than I did.
Thanks again guys!

Last edited by Cloudspin; 02-04-2015 at 03:48 PM. Reason: Clarify
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Old 02-04-2015, 08:17 AM   #4
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I've been reading great reviews about this product and would like to gather some more information. I have a 997.2 GT3 and am thinking about doing just the computer module, not the shocks. So please answer according to my situation.

1- I know this module allows for faster calculations and therefore more rapid adjustment/weight transfer to the stock shocks, but it is limited to the speed of the stock dampers as well. So, compared to stock PASM module, how much does the adjustment speed changes in terms of milliseconds (PASM vs. DSC)?
2- Are the applications model specific or universal through out the brand? If it is universal I'm guessing it won't be as optimized as it should be.

Thanks in advance!
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Old 02-04-2015, 10:52 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwtye View Post
Can you share the results of the testing on the 997 gt3 cup cars this last weekend and any data showing improvements with the DSC + Tractive DDA suspension setup. Ive been in talks with Harris regarding this setup for my 997.1 GT3 which is a dual duty street/track car, as Ive also been considering Bilstein Clubsports and JRZ DAs. Do you have any data comparing the DSC + Tractive DDA against OEM and against other high end aftermarket shocks
Our 997.2 Cup was running low 2:10's at the PCA Sebring Sprint Race 1 on IMSA Cup Challenge spec Yokohoma tires that have 2 sprint races on them, in traffic. Earlier in testing we cracked into the 9's, also in traffic. This is our first outing in this car with DSC and DDA. We are stoked about the times and the balance of the car so far with still more room for improvement. This is a fully legal IMSA GT3 Cup Challenge Gold Class car with PMNA sealed engine and spec tires. The non-IMSA Cup spec cars can have stickier tires and more power. Comparable fully spec cars ran low 2:11's on fresher spec Yoko tires. 2:10's on stickier tires. We feel this track is perfect for testing DSC and DDA due to its very bumpy characteristic. In addition to developing a setup to achieve very competitive lap times we feel it is equally important to be able to make seamless off line passes on a very bump track, which is also relevant to public road conditions.

Some of the DSC users have reported lap time improvements of around 2 seconds in HPDE events at different tracks on their street cars with OEM PASM shocks. Again, equally important is the improved stability which makes their car safer and easier to drive at a quicker pace and for emergency maneuvers.
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Old 02-04-2015, 12:04 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sin911 View Post
I've been reading great reviews about this product and would like to gather some more information. I have a 997.2 GT3 and am thinking about doing just the computer module, not the shocks. So please answer according to my situation.

1- I know this module allows for faster calculations and therefore more rapid adjustment/weight transfer to the stock shocks, but it is limited to the speed of the stock dampers as well. So, compared to stock PASM module, how much does the adjustment speed changes in terms of milliseconds (PASM vs. DSC)?
2- Are the applications model specific or universal through out the brand? If it is universal I'm guessing it won't be as optimized as it should be.

Thanks in advance!
I'll chime in since I've been using the DSC box first on my 997-1TT and now on the 997-2 GT3.

Based on what Tom told me a year ago it's not just the faster calculation and rapid adjustment that this box helps with. The stock PASM box allows for something like 15% adjustment of the shock absorbers. The DSC box uses 90% of their capacity. So the difference in feel is quite dramatic.

As far as adjustment speed, 100ms is pretty damn quick with the stock shock absorbers to begin with.

The maps are currently standard but they keep updating them and When I spoke with Mike at Sebring on Sunday he said that they are working on a database of maps that will be shared with customers. The box has a USB port and you can load new maps pretty easily.

Hope this helps!
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Old 02-04-2015, 12:28 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sin911 View Post
I've been reading great reviews about this product and would like to gather some more information. I have a 997.2 GT3 and am thinking about doing just the computer module, not the shocks. So please answer according to my situation.

1- I know this module allows for faster calculations and therefore more rapid adjustment/weight transfer to the stock shocks, but it is limited to the speed of the stock dampers as well. So, compared to stock PASM module, how much does the adjustment speed changes in terms of milliseconds (PASM vs. DSC)?
2- Are the applications model specific or universal through out the brand? If it is universal I'm guessing it won't be as optimized as it should be.

Thanks in advance!
Thanks for following the reviews.

The adjustment command speed to the shocks between DSC module and PASM module are the same, which is as fast as electrons travel in a conductor. But the speed of the command is irrelevant in terms of the car's performance when comparing the modules because the command to the shocks from DSC covers a much wider range than PASM.

For example, in a scale of 0 to 10, with 0 being softest damping value on the shocks and 10 being stiffest, the control range of PASM within each mode(Normal and Sport mode) is 1 count or less. Usually 1 count is not noticeable by the driver. Base setting for Normal mode is 1, which the shock damping is so soft that it really can't smooth out the oscillation generated by the coil springs after a bump, and base setting for Sport mode is 8 or 9 which in some situations the whole car's balance can get upset over high speed bumps because the damping to too stiff.

DSC's active control range can be the full range of the scale for whenever the load of the car requires more stiffness. Such as more damping after a bump to eliminate oscillation, stiffer front during braking, and stiffen the outside of the car during turns while keeping in the inside soft for curbing.

We currently offer the same DSC mapping for the entire rear-engine car family. The location of the engine dictates the polar moment of inertia of our cars. Since the control range of DSC is the full range of the shocks, it receives the g-load input from the accelerometer(yaw sensor) and other inputs from the car's CAN(Control Area Network) to determine/send commands to the shocks to improve stability to cover RWD and AWD variant of the rear-engine car family. However, the communication portion of the software to the car's instrument cluster is different from one model to another. This is not performance related but without the matching communication code to establish "handshake" to the instrument cluster it will result in a fault code. DSC is model specific for this reason.

Our goal in the future is to have more DSC maps for users to download. For now our existing mapping, which took years to refine, performs extremely well.
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Old 02-04-2015, 12:34 PM   #8
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Lots of good stuff--can't wait to see what you guys can eventually do with the unused channels in this box! Placed my order with Tom at TPC yesterday and had a good chat on the impressive work you guys are doing. Keep me posted--I'll be interested in your Cup setup!!
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Old 02-04-2015, 12:54 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilko View Post
I'll chime in since I've been using the DSC box first on my 997-1TT and now on the 997-2 GT3.

Based on what Tom told me a year ago it's not just the faster calculation and rapid adjustment that this box helps with. The stock PASM box allows for something like 15% adjustment of the shock absorbers. The DSC box uses 90% of their capacity. So the difference in feel is quite dramatic.

As far as adjustment speed, 100ms is pretty damn quick with the stock shock absorbers to begin with.

The maps are currently standard but they keep updating them and When I spoke with Mike at Sebring on Sunday he said that they are working on a database of maps that will be shared with customers. The box has a USB port and you can load new maps pretty easily.

Hope this helps!
Thanks, that does help me understand how it works a bit better

Quote:
Originally Posted by DSC Sport View Post
Thanks for following the reviews.

The adjustment command speed to the shocks between DSC module and PASM module are the same, which is as fast as electrons travel in a conductor. But the speed of the command is irrelevant in terms of the car's performance when comparing the modules because the command to the shocks from DSC covers a much wider range than PASM.

For example, in a scale of 0 to 10, with 0 being softest damping value on the shocks and 10 being stiffest, the control range of PASM within each mode(Normal and Sport mode) is 1 count or less. Usually 1 count is not noticeable by the driver. Base setting for Normal mode is 1, which the shock damping is so soft that it really can't smooth out the oscillation generated by the coil springs after a bump, and base setting for Sport mode is 8 or 9 which in some situations the whole car's balance can get upset over high speed bumps because the damping to too stiff.

DSC's active control range can be the full range of the scale for whenever the load of the car requires more stiffness. Such as more damping after a bump to eliminate oscillation, stiffer front during braking, and stiffen the outside of the car during turns while keeping in the inside soft for curbing.

We currently offer the same DSC mapping for the entire rear-engine car family. The location of the engine dictates the polar moment of inertia of our cars. Since the control range of DSC is the full range of the shocks, it receives the g-load input from the accelerometer(yaw sensor) and other inputs from the car's CAN(Control Area Network) to determine/send commands to the shocks to improve stability to cover RWD and AWD variant of the rear-engine car family. However, the communication portion of the software to the car's instrument cluster is different from one model to another. This is not performance related but without the matching communication code to establish "handshake" to the instrument cluster it will result in a fault code. DSC is model specific for this reason.

Our goal in the future is to have more DSC maps for users to download. For now our existing mapping, which took years to refine, performs extremely well.
Understood, thank you for the explanation The website is not a 100% yet on how things really do work so the forum is the best place to gather information directly.
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Old 02-04-2015, 03:46 PM   #10
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I don't see anything on the DSC Web site about GT3's. Is there more info somewhere on modules for the 997.1 GT3? I would be particularly interested in seeing a user's guide/manual as well as info on where/how to order.
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Old 02-04-2015, 04:22 PM   #11
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I don't see anything on the DSC Web site about GT3's. Is there more info somewhere on modules for the 997.1 GT3? I would be particularly interested in seeing a user's guide/manual as well as info on where/how to order.
We apologize for not having the info you are looking for on our website. It is newly launched and we are still working on it. Sorry for the inconvenience. At this time, Rennlist forum has the most info but the info is spread out through different threads which is why we are bringing the info and reviews together in this thread. Currently there isn't a user guide, we will make one of course. The installation is straight forward and there is only one button to play with to select the mode of your preference. Please contact us directly to place the order.

Tel: 410-799-7223
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Old 02-04-2015, 06:00 PM   #12
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Is there more info somewhere on modules for the 997.1 GT3?
Hopefully the info below will give a better understanding of the product.

DSC(Dynamic Suspension Control) module is an active electronic controller for electro-mechanically shocks. DSC module controls the shocks in an active manner, meaning the commands sent to the shocks are based on input and a predictive algorithm developed using over a decade of pro race car data. While DSC is very much a high performance focused product for both street and track, in many cases DSC will produce a more comfortable ride over bumps through superior shock damping control to either eliminate or greatly reduce spring oscillation. The increased comfort does not only apply to driving over bumps on public roads it makes track/race cars more stable especially driving over race track curbing.

There are two lines of DSC modules, they are "Plug & Play" and "Standalone". The DSC Plug & Play module directly replaces the factory PASM module on cars equipped with PASM to gain a much wider range of control over the factory PASM shocks, Bilstein Damptronic shocks, and our soon to be released Tractive DDA shocks. Standalone line is for retrofitting non-PASM cars.

For the 997.1 cars, including the 997.1 GT3, a 3-axis accelerometer(aka Yaw sensor) is required because the factory accelerometer is only 2-axis. In order to achieve fully dynamic chassis 3-axis(lateral, longitudinal, and vertical axis) input is required.
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Old 05-29-2015, 11:29 AM   #13
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We are thrilled to announce our development partnership for the Gen-V Dodge Viper with 2015 Rolex-24 At Daytona GTD Class Winner and 2015 24 Hours At Le Mans GTE Class Competitor, Ben Keating. Ben is among the top contenders in IMSA/Tudor United SportsCar Championship with victories piloting the Viper GT3-R as well as hard fought wins in the Porsche GT3 Cup in the highly competitive former IMSA GTC Class. Here is the development story by Ben. The product is for a different brand of car but the same enthusiasm for performance achievement and technology applies. Hope you enjoy the read.

My Damper Development story - Ben Keating

Back in 2013, when the Gen V Viper first came out, I wanted to move up into the top levels of Sportscar Racing, and there wasn’t really a good option for me to race a Viper. Therefore, I raced a Porsche GT3 Cup car in the GTC class of the American Le Mans Series. And in order to learn more about driving a Porsche and to learn many of the tracks I had never been to before, I did several races in the IMSA GT3 Cup with TPC Racing.

Michael Levitas is the owner, racer, and head tech guy for TPC racing. TPC Racing is one of the premier Porsche aftermarket companies in the Nation. If you want to make your Porsche go fast, then TPC Racing is the place you go. One of TPC’s best-selling items is their DSC damper controller for the Bilstein dual mode damper system. This unit is a simple plug and play replacement of the factory damper controller, which takes it from being basically an on/off switch to being a fully active suspension.

As Michael and I were talking at the track about how awesome the new Gen V was going to be, I was describing the new dual mode Bilstein dampers as being one of my favorite developments on the new car. I have always really loved the Viper, but I’ve never been happy with the ride quality that you have to put up with in order for the Viper to keep its track performance. I was extremely excited about the new Bilstein system, because I hoped this would finally give me the best of both worlds. During our discussion, Michael was saying that the electronic damper controller that he has had so much success with on the Porsche is for a Bilstein system, and that we might be able to plug in the same DSC system on the Viper. And that was how it all started. It was literally born at the track.

I went home and promptly put a new Viper into demo service to test the DSC controller. Amazingly, it literally plugged straight into the same plug as the factory unit, and it looked like exactly the same box. The buttons on the dash still functioned the exact same way. The indicator lights showing Street Mode or Race mode were all still exactly the same. I was excited!

I went straight from the install to a Viper gathering in the Texas Hill Country and the opportunity to drive at Circuit Of The Americas in Austin. My reaction to the system was just kind of “blah”. It was good and it was better, but not what I was hoping for. In fact, when I drove over the rumble strips at COTA (which you really need to do in a few areas), I was disappointed in the performance of the suspension. The car really did not like the rumble strips. So, I called Michael to discuss.

Michael was shocked (no pun intended). He had high hopes as well. He asked me to ship him the entire suspension, and I did. After testing everything and measuring what the stock Bilstein damper was capable of, he said that he totally understood why I responded that way. He said that the Bilstein damper on the Viper does not have the same dynamic range as the Bilstein damper on the Porsche. Therefore, the stock dampers on the Viper were not capable of handling everything the DSC was asking them to do. So because I was still so determined to find was I was looking for, Michael and I game planned on what the next move would be if we were going to be able to really take advantage of the DSC. He asked for some time to work through an idea he had.

Several weeks later Michael called back all excited. He had worked out an arrangement with Tractive Suspension to build a damper for the Viper. His exact words were, “Why go with an upgraded Bilstein of the Porsche, when you can go even better?” Everything about the Tractive dampers was better. They responded faster to the communication from the DSC. The quality of the construction was “top shelf”. They were fully ride height adjustable. And, they had a far superior dynamic range, which would allow us to customize the DSC controller to our needs and desires. We ordered 2 sets for testing.

When I received the first set of dampers, I was very impressed. They were a very good looking piece of equipment. Michael had already pre-set the ride heights on them to compare with where my car was before with the lowering caps I had on my Bilsteins. So, they were literally an easy, bolt on replacement.

The moment I drove my car with the Tractive Dampers I could tell a significant difference. It was much better than it had been before, but still not where I was hoping we could achieve. I called Michael to talk about it and he was not concerned in the least. He said we would need to write a program for the DSC to match the Tractive Damper, the Spring rates we decided to go with, and the specific characteristics of the Viper. So, we immediately went to our calendars and scheduled test days.

Michael flew to Texas, and we spent the first 2 days working on the street set up. We started by me driving around while Michael sat in the passenger seat looking at his laptop until he found something he didn’t like, and he would change the program. We did this for quite a while until he was happy. We then went out to drive a stock Viper to compare what it “used to” feel like, because we were having trouble remembering. While I was skeptical at first, the comparison to the stock car was extremely impressive. The difference was enormous.

But for me, I still didn’t like the way the car felt over railroad tracks or over the rough and wavy streets in my neighborhood. We spent quite a bit of time trying to dial it in. I was having a hard time describing it other than to say that the Corvette ZR1 felt more comfortable. This prompted us to get into the Corvette and do a half day of side by side tests. In my opinion, when it comes to the track, nothing even comes close to the Viper. But when it comes to the street, the Corvette is one of the best riding sportscars. One of my biggest measurements is the “wife test”. My wife, Kathleen, loves to drive a manual transmission car. She enjoys driving the Corvette, but doesn’t even want to ride passenger in the stock Viper because of how rough it is.

I was now amazed. Michael was able to spend 2 days on the laptop programing the DSC while I described what I didn’t like, and customized the ride on the Viper to ride better than the Corvette. I am picky when it comes to ride quality. In fact, I have piles of dampers back in my shop where I had tried everything to get a better ride in my 2002 GTS ACR, but to no avail. A smooth, but performance oriented feel in a Viper seemed like the Holy Grail. I knew we had just found something special and Kathleen was going to be excited too.

The next day Michael and I took the Viper to the track at Motorsports Ranch South of Houston to see what the track performance was like. MSR Houston has unfortunately fallen victim to the typical soil around the Gulf Coast, and is pretty bumpy for a race track, but a good place to test suspension. It didn’t take long for me to start exploring the limits of the car.

The first issue I noticed was under extreme heavy braking. The front-end seemed to lose all dampening and it would cause the ABS to kick in, which would eliminate any ability for me to modulate the brakes going into a corner. What we quickly realized was that we had set up the dampers in a similar fashion to the stock Bilsteins, and that under extreme braking the front end was riding on the bump rubbers and causing exactly what I was feeling – effectively no suspension. It was so incredible to be able to remove the bump rubbers to give a little additional room for movement and also reprogram into the DSC the ability to support the front end under that condition without bottoming out. HUGE difference! There was much less ABS. I could brake deeper into the corner and modulate the brakes throughout. The suspension even got rid on the rear-end wiggle I was feeling under heavy braking. The stability and grip level under braking compared to the stock suspension was astounding.

The next thing that really impressed me was the overall grip level. When driving the stock suspension around the track, you almost have to turn off the Electronic Stability Control and traction control, because it comes in all the time and really slows you down. I realized how big the improvement was when I hopped in the car to do a session and realized afterwards that I had forgotten to switch the ESC out of its fully active mode. The grip level was so much higher with the Tractive dampers combined with the active controller that the ESC didn’t come in and interrupt my driving. It is hard to explain how significant this is. The suspension system has such a large dynamic range that it is able to control the car without overloading the tire’s grip level.

I realized I had even gotten used to the ESC coming in here and there while driving on the street as the tires slid around just a small amount. It had become just one of the characteristics of the car. But as a result of the track experience, I realized this had gone away on the street as well. The Dynamic Controller was able to react to my inputs and change the dampers fast enough to maintain the grip. And you have to remember I was driving on the exact same Pirelli street tires the car was delivered with and they had 1,100 miles of hard driving on them over the course of 4 months.

Another neat thing was to go around the Carousel turn at MSR. This is not a smooth track and there is no camber in the road. But with the software from the DSC, we were able to record a consistent 1.3G’s all the way around the Carousel. This is HUGE! The same old street tires, no Wing or splitter, much less than ideal track conditions, and I was able to drive through that turn faster than I can remember driving it in my ACRX. I mean just imagine how incredible it would be on the track if I had a stickier tire or if I had a little more Aero downforce. This difference this overall system made on the handling was incredible.

Even coming out of the slow turns where you want to get the best launch that you can, I was able to leave the full traction control system on without interruption and was able to really get around the track well. Furthermore, the stability difference through the S-turns, where the DSC is able to react specifically to what is going on at that exact moment, gives you the perfect package for each specific situation without compromise. I was not driving for a specific lap time, but I would be shocked if this system didn’t cut at least 2 full seconds off my time at MSR. In fact, with a little Aero and a decent set of track tires, I would put my stock Gen V Viper up against any other race car.

In summary, the end result was even better than I could have dreamed of. I believe if there is only one thing someone can afford to add to their Gen V Viper, this is it. It makes the car a much better daily driver, a much better cruiser, a much better track car, and even a much better garage queen because the slightly lowered look is so sexy. It makes the Viper truly the ultimate sportscar I always wanted.

When Michael and I started discussing prices of all this stuff, my goal was to be able to keep it all below $10,000. But with the highest quality electronic dampers, and the technology of an active damper controller, and the springs, I wasn’t sure we could get there. As it turned out, we were able to sell all of this Ultra-Premium hardware and technology at a price that is cheaper than a set of 3-way Motons!

I know this sounds crazy, but I believe this suspension could revolutionize the Viper. I am THAT excited about it. - Ben Keating

If you are interested in following the discussion for the Gen-V Viper DSC Sport/Tractive development here's the link for another forum-
http://driveviper.com/forums/threads...t-Release-****
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Old 05-29-2015, 10:37 PM   #14
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Do any of the lessons learned with the Viper have relevance to the Porsche DSC products, in particular for the GT3? I have the DSC module in my '07 GT3 and it's definitely a significant improvement on the OEM PASM. The chassis is much more composed and settled over bumps, even in the stiffest mode. I'm wondering if it can be made even better in any way.
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Old 05-30-2015, 12:15 AM   #15
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I think Bens story is a great story and the amount of involvement you guys had in tailoring it to his needs is awesome. However, for us average consumers Im assuming we won't get that kind of support, so the question is is how good is the out of the box setup that will be sold to us gt3 owners and how much individual tailoring would be available.
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