991 GT3 PDK & Centerlock Debate
02-20-2013, 10:48 PM
#16
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I've driven PDK cars at the track (Cayman R and Boxster Spyder) and, in my opinion, they get very boring very quickly. I yearned for my manual. A lot of the fun, for me, is shifting and heel-toeing. I agree that PDK is for attractive for some, and I applaud Porsche for offering it on their GT series cars. But offering it exclusively is a mistake. I would never buy a GT3 or RS with a PDK.
As for CLs, I think they're a needless pain in the ***. There's no way that one person can change four CL wheels as quickly as I can swap four five-lug wheels, particularly with an impact gun but even just with a tire iron. The question about whether they are too finicky and fiddly to be safe and reliable in the constant on-and-off-the-car environment of track days leaves me cold. I'd never buy a car with CLs.
As for CLs, I think they're a needless pain in the ***. There's no way that one person can change four CL wheels as quickly as I can swap four five-lug wheels, particularly with an impact gun but even just with a tire iron. The question about whether they are too finicky and fiddly to be safe and reliable in the constant on-and-off-the-car environment of track days leaves me cold. I'd never buy a car with CLs.
02-20-2013, 11:03 PM
#17
Race Director
Since I do my own service work on my brakes....cough cough TrakCar....Center Lock wheels really show their pain in the butt due to having to take the brake pedal depressor on and off. Really to do a simple brake bleed with Center Lock wheels the car must be put up on 4 jack stands. Trying to do a brake bleed at the track is very tiresome and time consuming.
02-20-2013, 11:37 PM
#19
Race Director
Mike, the "PDK" in question in this thread means "PDK only" and that non-choice SUCKS.
In addition--your situation excepted--the fact that a driver has to be careful not to use TOO much throttle else it picks a different gear than the one he selected, is simply retarded. Retarded! You mention the Ferrari F1 tranny. Put it in 3rd gear and it stays in 3rd gear coming out of T10...whether you use 5% or 50% or 100% throttle. As it should be.
In addition--your situation excepted--the fact that a driver has to be careful not to use TOO much throttle else it picks a different gear than the one he selected, is simply retarded. Retarded! You mention the Ferrari F1 tranny. Put it in 3rd gear and it stays in 3rd gear coming out of T10...whether you use 5% or 50% or 100% throttle. As it should be.
02-20-2013, 11:42 PM
#20
Rennlist Member
If you come out of a tight turn at say 2500 RPM in 3rd gear with the Ferrari F1 tranny and mash the throttle will it allow you to lug the engine? Would you floor the throttle like that in a MT car without downshifting first? The fact that PDK will downshift for you automatically in that situation may be unwanted intervention, but if that's what someone is trying to do, I'd at least suggest it's the driver that's being retarded, not the transmission.
Bottom line: if I want 3rd, I want 3rd, and not some holier-than-thou Cherman engineer's opinion of what gear he thinks I should be in.
02-20-2013, 11:45 PM
#21
Rennlist Member
if you read my other posts you'll know my opinion on CL's - they are crap and not worth defending. I mean honestly porsche recommends swapping them more frequently than fluids, fact, not fiction.
I will not purchase another Porsche product with Center Locks.
PDK rocks!
I will not purchase another Porsche product with Center Locks.
PDK rocks!
02-21-2013, 12:02 AM
#22
Race Director
Mike, the "PDK" in question in this thread means "PDK only" and that non-choice SUCKS.
In addition--your situation excepted--the fact that a driver has to be careful not to use TOO much throttle else it picks a different gear than the one he selected, is simply retarded. Retarded! You mention the Ferrari F1 tranny. Put it in 3rd gear and it stays in 3rd gear coming out of T10...whether you use 5% or 50% or 100% throttle. As it should be.
In addition--your situation excepted--the fact that a driver has to be careful not to use TOO much throttle else it picks a different gear than the one he selected, is simply retarded. Retarded! You mention the Ferrari F1 tranny. Put it in 3rd gear and it stays in 3rd gear coming out of T10...whether you use 5% or 50% or 100% throttle. As it should be.
02-21-2013, 12:07 AM
#23
Race Director
Well, we will disagree, Mike. In some corners, I may want a higher gear in order to buy some stability in the bakc end that allows me to go WOT sooner & once, rather than feathering a high-RPM would out chassis because it is unsettled. Capisce? Tracks like Sebring that are very bumpy in spots are prime examples of this.
Bottom line: if I want 3rd, I want 3rd, and not some holier-than-thou Cherman engineer's opinion of what gear he thinks I should be in.
Bottom line: if I want 3rd, I want 3rd, and not some holier-than-thou Cherman engineer's opinion of what gear he thinks I should be in.
02-21-2013, 12:09 AM
#24
Race Director
I'm just trying to get you all to understand PDK a little bit better that's all. It's not perfect I know but it is dang good and reliable....how 'bout those pressure plates 3.8RS guys?!?! LOL
02-21-2013, 12:11 AM
#25
Race Director
Well, we will disagree, Mike. In some corners, I may want a higher gear in order to buy some stability in the bakc end that allows me to go WOT sooner & once, rather than feathering a high-RPM would out chassis because it is unsettled. Capisce? Tracks like Sebring that are very bumpy in spots are prime examples of this.
Bottom line: if I want 3rd, I want 3rd, and not some holier-than-thou Cherman engineer's opinion of what gear he thinks I should be in.
Bottom line: if I want 3rd, I want 3rd, and not some holier-than-thou Cherman engineer's opinion of what gear he thinks I should be in.
The point is that the occasions where you get truly unwanted downshifts are few. Every so often, for example, exiting a very slow corner at WOT in 2nd gear I will get a kickdown to first that I wouldn't have attempted with a MT. If there's any upside to this, it's that PDK does the downshift and subsequent upshift so quickly, and with no destabilization of the chassis, that you end up being faster than if you'd stayed in 2nd. Whether someone thinks that's outweighed by the fact that the transmission did something they didn't request, is another matter.
Edit: I just saw where Mike has already made some of these points as well or better than I did.....
02-21-2013, 12:14 AM
#26
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Im thinking the 991GT3 will share the same centerlock system as 991Cup.... One would like to think....
Worst case if it is still the 997 system it will be a nice mod to install the 991 Cup center locks and wheels...
As for PDK, if anybody thinks that it will be boring then they are just not driving fast enough
Worst case if it is still the 997 system it will be a nice mod to install the 991 Cup center locks and wheels...
As for PDK, if anybody thinks that it will be boring then they are just not driving fast enough
02-21-2013, 12:41 AM
#27
Rennlist Member
Unless the rpm is below 1250, it will not downshift when in manual mode. For example, if you mat the throttle in 5th gear at 1000 rpm, it will down shift. But, if you mat the throttle in 3rd gear at 1500 rpm, it will not downshift.
02-21-2013, 12:42 AM
#28
Nordschleife Master
02-21-2013, 01:01 AM
#29
Rennlist Member
I prefer manual, but maybe I can live with PDK if Porsche makes me. I will need a few PDK track days to decide. If I can't live with it I keep my car. It will still have a few more HP and down force than the 991 to overcome speed difference, although in straight line I'm a slow shifter and can barely keep up with a well sorted GTS, so the is no doubt it is faster, but also easier, so that may bore me.
CL's offer no benefits, except for no more broken studs and stripped wheel bolts and no need for a gun that you have to keep charged, but I don't mind them at all. I've seen no issues on the CL's save for the manufacturing defects now corrected with the recall and the user errors on the 510 non RS GT3's. the 991 is all wide body, so maybe there is more to it than just the RS uprights? Both the defect and operator error are Porsches fault because the car did not come with the right tools ($400) and clear instructions.
Another negatives is greasing the nuts, but you don't have to do it each time and if you are careful you can do it bare handed, but I think most of us use gloves to swap wheels.
The benefit is that they look cool and no more broken studs and stripped bolts.
If a no cost option I would still pick CL, but I certainly would not pay more for it. If it would come with 5 lugs that would be fine too.
The danger and difficulty level of dealing with the CL IMHO is greatly overblown, it cost me no more time to swap wheels than 5 lugs. But we already have a challenge between NJGT and myself that he claims to swap 2 sets faster than my one swap that he will lose. I'll try to make it happen as soon as my car is back from the shop.
CL's offer no benefits, except for no more broken studs and stripped wheel bolts and no need for a gun that you have to keep charged, but I don't mind them at all. I've seen no issues on the CL's save for the manufacturing defects now corrected with the recall and the user errors on the 510 non RS GT3's. the 991 is all wide body, so maybe there is more to it than just the RS uprights? Both the defect and operator error are Porsches fault because the car did not come with the right tools ($400) and clear instructions.
Another negatives is greasing the nuts, but you don't have to do it each time and if you are careful you can do it bare handed, but I think most of us use gloves to swap wheels.
The benefit is that they look cool and no more broken studs and stripped bolts.
If a no cost option I would still pick CL, but I certainly would not pay more for it. If it would come with 5 lugs that would be fine too.
The danger and difficulty level of dealing with the CL IMHO is greatly overblown, it cost me no more time to swap wheels than 5 lugs. But we already have a challenge between NJGT and myself that he claims to swap 2 sets faster than my one swap that he will lose. I'll try to make it happen as soon as my car is back from the shop.
02-21-2013, 01:05 AM
#30
Nordschleife Master
Dude you know I respect you and appreciate all your car savy but I dont think someone can change or rotate a set of center lock wheels (correctly per porsche specs) faster than 5 lug with an impact and a torque wrench. Id be willing to bet a few shots on that. Whats the worse that could happen. We do more shots....