991 GT3 PDK & Centerlock Debate
02-21-2013, 09:00 PM
#46
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Mike, this has not been my experience at Sebring. The PDK cars I have driven there (2 of them) have both done unwanted kickdowns at above 4,000 RPM's. So this is the basis for my comments.
In addition, the bigger picture: I want to select my gears, PERIOD. If I am a dope & want to floor it in 5th at 2,800 RPM, I should be able to do so. Supposedly a DRIVER'S car does not out think the DRIVER. if I want the car to pick it, I will just put it in D and go...which is fine.
In addition, the bigger picture: I want to select my gears, PERIOD. If I am a dope & want to floor it in 5th at 2,800 RPM, I should be able to do so. Supposedly a DRIVER'S car does not out think the DRIVER. if I want the car to pick it, I will just put it in D and go...which is fine.
As for lugging - this will never happen on the track - but in manual - it will still change from 6th to 3rd (as an example) at very low revs so you dont lug the engine (coming to a stop as an example - in a manual car you would be lugging or stalling).
In manual on upshifts - it wont upshift unless you want it to - even at red-line (it will bounce off the limiter)..
There you have it -
02-21-2013, 09:25 PM
#47
Race Director
^ thanks Rodsky...nice explanation...I tried too. ;-)
02-21-2013, 10:08 PM
#48
Rennlist Member
Well, dude, all I know is that I put my foot down in 3rd, well above 4000, and it kicked down.
02-22-2013, 08:30 AM
#51
Rennlist Member
Nope.
Yes. Boxster Spyder & Cayman R.
Yes. Boxster Spyder & Cayman R.
02-22-2013, 04:43 PM
#53
Rennlist Member
If you are in manual mode - there is no "kickdown" above 4000 RPM unless you depress the gas pedal past a physical kickdown resistance point. Its pretty stiff resisitance. In other words you can be flooring it (flat out) and it wont kickdown unless you intentionally go past the kickdown with your right foot.
As for lugging - this will never happen on the track - but in manual - it will still change from 6th to 3rd (as an example) at very low revs so you dont lug the engine (coming to a stop as an example - in a manual car you would be lugging or stalling).
In manual on upshifts - it wont upshift unless you want it to - even at red-line (it will bounce off the limiter)..
There you have it -
As for lugging - this will never happen on the track - but in manual - it will still change from 6th to 3rd (as an example) at very low revs so you dont lug the engine (coming to a stop as an example - in a manual car you would be lugging or stalling).
In manual on upshifts - it wont upshift unless you want it to - even at red-line (it will bounce off the limiter)..
There you have it -
Plus, plus! The gear leaver is pull to upshift and push to downshift in the M3 DCT. This is basic stuff and only pride (hidebound tradition???) keeps Porsche from doing it right.
Last point: The kickdown button worked in manual like this: mash it then pull the downshift leaver and the DCT will select the lowest available gear. Pretty cool for freeway passing and getting hole shots in traffic. Again though, this is totally under user control.
02-22-2013, 06:35 PM
#54
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Still, if memory serves the DCT in my old M3 would never shift for you unless the engine was about to stall. Lug it or mash it in manual and the gear doesn't change until you do. A BMW dual clutch should not operate better than a Porsche dual clutch, but you can say that about a lot of things Porsche.
Plus, plus! The gear leaver is pull to upshift and push to downshift in the M3 DCT. This is basic stuff and only pride (hidebound tradition???) keeps Porsche from doing it right.
Last point: The kickdown button worked in manual like this: mash it then pull the downshift leaver and the DCT will select the lowest available gear. Pretty cool for freeway passing and getting hole shots in traffic. Again though, this is totally under user control.
Plus, plus! The gear leaver is pull to upshift and push to downshift in the M3 DCT. This is basic stuff and only pride (hidebound tradition???) keeps Porsche from doing it right.
Last point: The kickdown button worked in manual like this: mash it then pull the downshift leaver and the DCT will select the lowest available gear. Pretty cool for freeway passing and getting hole shots in traffic. Again though, this is totally under user control.
On the pull/push - this is the only DCT i have driven. Not saying which one is better. I am used to the Porsche way now - I'm sure I'd botch it if reversed now at least for a while.
With the Porsche PDK - kickdown goes to the lowest gear instantly. So same if not better. Also, If you hold the PDK paddle down (minus) in manual, it seeks the lowest gear vs going down one gear - I now have to go drive it to make sure this is the way it works - but I'm pretty sure.
02-22-2013, 06:43 PM
#55
Race Director
If the spy pics in the New GT3 thread are accurate this, at least, has been fixed for the PDK-S in the 991 GT3.
02-23-2013, 01:42 AM
#56
Rennlist Member
The Porsche downshift works the same way as the BMW does - except for the kick down (physical thing with the throttle). You have to want to kick it down (intentionally press it beyond a hard physical kick down point) - so I dont think the BMW one is better. Pretty much the same.
On the pull/push - this is the only DCT i have driven. Not saying which one is better. I am used to the Porsche way now - I'm sure I'd botch it if reversed now at least for a while.
With the Porsche PDK - kickdown goes to the lowest gear instantly. So same if not better. Also, If you hold the PDK paddle down (minus) in manual, it seeks the lowest gear vs going down one gear - I now have to go drive it to make sure this is the way it works - but I'm pretty sure.
On the pull/push - this is the only DCT i have driven. Not saying which one is better. I am used to the Porsche way now - I'm sure I'd botch it if reversed now at least for a while.
With the Porsche PDK - kickdown goes to the lowest gear instantly. So same if not better. Also, If you hold the PDK paddle down (minus) in manual, it seeks the lowest gear vs going down one gear - I now have to go drive it to make sure this is the way it works - but I'm pretty sure.
Let's hope, but Porsche is stubborn...
02-23-2013, 01:44 PM
#57
Rennlist Member
Color me firmly in the camp of no choice STINKS.
PDK is great, especially on track. I think the new GT3 should be available with PDK, and hope it will be. PDK is great for many customers, especially those who don't like to/can't shift or simply view it as more efficient and thus better. But when I had a PDK for a couple of years (ordered the car that way to see if I could be converted), the car sat and I would take our non-DSG GTI four-door out for errands, fun runs, etc. And there is something wrong when you are choosing a four-door VW over a flat-six Porsche. Bottom line, I simply enjoy the engagement of three pedals. The GT3 Cup and RSR showed me that I could care less about a traditional H-pattern shifter (except in case of Honda S2000 and Audi R8 manual). Sequential is the way to roll, and there is now no reason the 991's PDK-based manual's linkage can't be reworked to function as a sequential-style shifter. All I care about is matching the revs and being in charge of the car, and most of the magic happens with feet, not hands. Take away that third pedal, and that magic is, for me, lost.
Don't get me wrong. I've driven some WONDERFUL cars with just two pedals (C63, ur-S8, E55/63, Pana GTS come to mind), but there's a good chance my own GT3 dream ends here if the future is two-pedaled. The 991 GT3 may be great — I can tell you it LOOKS great — and I'll have to review the car and its features objectively, but I suspect my interest level will drop a bit if it's PDK only, just as it has for modern-day F-cars — no matter how good they are. We'll see.
Glad there will be PDK for those who want it, hate the idea of no clutch pedal for those who don't. It's a sad day when you can choose your transmission in a Corvette or Cadillac, but not in Porsche's most focused driver's car. Good thing there are and will be used Porsches for many years to come.
pete
PDK is great, especially on track. I think the new GT3 should be available with PDK, and hope it will be. PDK is great for many customers, especially those who don't like to/can't shift or simply view it as more efficient and thus better. But when I had a PDK for a couple of years (ordered the car that way to see if I could be converted), the car sat and I would take our non-DSG GTI four-door out for errands, fun runs, etc. And there is something wrong when you are choosing a four-door VW over a flat-six Porsche. Bottom line, I simply enjoy the engagement of three pedals. The GT3 Cup and RSR showed me that I could care less about a traditional H-pattern shifter (except in case of Honda S2000 and Audi R8 manual). Sequential is the way to roll, and there is now no reason the 991's PDK-based manual's linkage can't be reworked to function as a sequential-style shifter. All I care about is matching the revs and being in charge of the car, and most of the magic happens with feet, not hands. Take away that third pedal, and that magic is, for me, lost.
Don't get me wrong. I've driven some WONDERFUL cars with just two pedals (C63, ur-S8, E55/63, Pana GTS come to mind), but there's a good chance my own GT3 dream ends here if the future is two-pedaled. The 991 GT3 may be great — I can tell you it LOOKS great — and I'll have to review the car and its features objectively, but I suspect my interest level will drop a bit if it's PDK only, just as it has for modern-day F-cars — no matter how good they are. We'll see.
Glad there will be PDK for those who want it, hate the idea of no clutch pedal for those who don't. It's a sad day when you can choose your transmission in a Corvette or Cadillac, but not in Porsche's most focused driver's car. Good thing there are and will be used Porsches for many years to come.
pete
Last edited by stout; 02-23-2013 at 06:34 PM.
02-23-2013, 02:10 PM
#58
Rennlist Member
Glad there will be PDK for those who want it, hate that there won't be a clutch pedal for those who don't. It's a sad day when you can choose your transmission in a Corvette or Cadillac, but not in Porsche's most focused driver's car. Good thing there are and will be used Porsches for many years to come.pete
02-23-2013, 02:22 PM
#59
Rennlist Member
Mike, this has not been my experience at Sebring. The PDK cars I have driven there (2 of them) have both done unwanted kickdowns at above 4,000 RPM's. So this is the basis for my comments.
In addition, the bigger picture: I want to select my gears, PERIOD. If I am a dope & want to floor it in 5th at 2,800 RPM, I should be able to do so. Supposedly a DRIVER'S car does not out think the DRIVER. if I want the car to pick it, I will just put it in D and go...which is fine.
In addition, the bigger picture: I want to select my gears, PERIOD. If I am a dope & want to floor it in 5th at 2,800 RPM, I should be able to do so. Supposedly a DRIVER'S car does not out think the DRIVER. if I want the car to pick it, I will just put it in D and go...which is fine.
I've had PDK cars shift on their own in the manual mode. Not often, but it's happened in Manual mode, which means Manual isn't. And that's kinda like PDK in other situations, too: Brilliant 90-99% of the time, less smooth/less predictable than a manual 1-10% of the time. And they cannot truly anticipate the road ahead as a good driver can. How much that will bother you...well, YMMV. Bugged me enough after two years with a PDK Cayman S that I wasn't sad to see it go and still don't miss it. But that's me, and other people absolutely love their PDK Porsches and will never go back to manuals. And I gotta respect that.
I don't VR is telling anyone how it has to be — just how he likes it. And I have to say I'm with him on this one.
pete
P.S. Let me just say, PDK > Tiptronic x 1,000,000. For what it is, it's very, very good. It's just not a replacement for a manual. For me.
Last edited by stout; 02-23-2013 at 05:33 PM.
02-23-2013, 05:10 PM
#60
Drifting
Color me firmly in the camp of no choice STINKS.
PDK is great, especially on track. I think the new GT3 should be available with PDK, as it's great for many customers, and especially those don't like to/can't shift or simply view it as more efficient and thus better. But when I had a PDK for a couple of years (ordered the car that way to see if I could be converted), the car sat and I would take our non-DSG GTI four-door out for errands, fun runs, etc. And there is something wrong when you are choosing a four-door VW over a flat-six Porsche. Bottom line, I simply enjoy the engagement of three pedals. The GT3 Cup and RSR showed me that I could care less about a traditional H-pattern shifter (except in case of Honda S2000 and Audi R8 manual). Sequential is the way to roll, and there is now no reason the 991's PDK-based manual's linkage can't be reworked to function as a sequential-style shifter. All I care about is matching the revs and being in charge of the car, and most of the magic happens with feet, not hands. Take away that third pedal, and that magic is, for me, lost.
Don't get me wrong. I've driven some WONDERFUL cars with just two pedals (C63, ur-S8, E55/63, Pana GTS come to mind), but there's a good chance my own GT3 dream ends here if the future is two-pedaled. The 991 GT3 may be great — I can tell you it LOOKS great — and I'll have to review the car and its features objectively, but I suspect my interest level will drop a bit, just as it has for modern-day F-cars —*no matter how good they are. We'll see.
Glad there will be PDK for those who want it, hate that there won't be a clutch pedal for those who don't. It's a sad day when you can choose your transmission in a Corvette or Cadillac, but not in Porsche's most focused driver's car. Good thing there are and will be used Porsches for many years to come.
pete
PDK is great, especially on track. I think the new GT3 should be available with PDK, as it's great for many customers, and especially those don't like to/can't shift or simply view it as more efficient and thus better. But when I had a PDK for a couple of years (ordered the car that way to see if I could be converted), the car sat and I would take our non-DSG GTI four-door out for errands, fun runs, etc. And there is something wrong when you are choosing a four-door VW over a flat-six Porsche. Bottom line, I simply enjoy the engagement of three pedals. The GT3 Cup and RSR showed me that I could care less about a traditional H-pattern shifter (except in case of Honda S2000 and Audi R8 manual). Sequential is the way to roll, and there is now no reason the 991's PDK-based manual's linkage can't be reworked to function as a sequential-style shifter. All I care about is matching the revs and being in charge of the car, and most of the magic happens with feet, not hands. Take away that third pedal, and that magic is, for me, lost.
Don't get me wrong. I've driven some WONDERFUL cars with just two pedals (C63, ur-S8, E55/63, Pana GTS come to mind), but there's a good chance my own GT3 dream ends here if the future is two-pedaled. The 991 GT3 may be great — I can tell you it LOOKS great — and I'll have to review the car and its features objectively, but I suspect my interest level will drop a bit, just as it has for modern-day F-cars —*no matter how good they are. We'll see.
Glad there will be PDK for those who want it, hate that there won't be a clutch pedal for those who don't. It's a sad day when you can choose your transmission in a Corvette or Cadillac, but not in Porsche's most focused driver's car. Good thing there are and will be used Porsches for many years to come.
pete