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TJ, still a fan of the trefeo for our heavy 997's? I'm thinking about picking up a set for some track duty.
Originally Posted by TJ Elliott
The conclusion here shouldn't be about confidence in the tire itself but how it's used. Not sure why, but on Rennlist most people say they run at 2 bar hot which is 29.5 psi. What I'm saying is that I experienced severe tire roll (front and rear) at pressures in the 30/32 range and experienced a tire failure at 33/35 hot with cold temps of 28/30. Keep in mind I have a heavier AWD C4S.
Pirelli's response is this is too low of a cold pressure and too low of a hot pressure. I did not mention this before but I asked about their literature and website that says 2 bar hot and they said it's wrong and they're in the process of changing the website.
I think the question to ask is do the tire failures that have been reported correlate to low cold and hot pressure usage? That is what Pirelli has said in my case. I'm giving them another try using Pirelli's pressure recommendations then I'll go from there.
TJ, still a fan of the trefeo for our heavy 997's? I'm thinking about picking up a set for some track duty.
Still running the Trofeos and love the grip. Finally settled on -3.0 degrees negative camber on the front and -3.25 on the rear. I make sure I don't allow the pressure to go below 32 PSI (even when cold) and no issues. Not a lot of options if you're running 19" wheels on the track but I feel the Trofeos offer the best grip of the DOT tires.
I went through 5 sets of them before I sold the car.
The tire needs camber to work properly but its not vital
At 2.1 / 32psi the tire goes away. Not sure how TJ was managing but then again different tracks with different conditions but honestly your floor is my ceiling!
Just got a set of Trofeo R for the Cayman R (stock suspension, 18" wheels) and will be taking the car to Watkins Glen soon, driving 5 hrs each way on these tires, and about 10 total hours of track time. Expected temps mostly in the 60s.
I'd appreciate opinions on alignment and hot pressures with these tires. IIRC, current alignment is -2.3F and -1.5R cambers, slight front toe out, slight rear toe in. These alignment settings have worked well on the car with NT01s.
And will the tires make it there and back (not trailering)?
Manifold...per Pirelli and what I've seen at the track...these tires need -3 camber up front. I've seen guys with a somewhat stock amount of camber totally shrewd and wear out Trofeo's in 1 track day easy.
See if you can get -3 up front and -2.5 rear....or at least -2.5 front and -2.3 rear...check tire temps and wear after each session. 30psi hot is what I was told.
Manifold...per Pirelli and what I've seen at the track...these tires need -3 camber up front. I've seen guys with a somewhat stock amount of camber totally shrewd and wear out Trofeo's in 1 track day easy.
See if you can get -3 up front and -2.5 rear....or at least -2.5 front and -2.3 rear...check tire temps and wear after each session. 30psi hot is what I was told.
Even with a Cayman? I read the whole thread, and seems like Savy and some others have used lower cambers with good results. But I see that others have found a need to go with higher cambers too.
Even with a Cayman? I read the whole thread, and seems like Savy and some others have used lower cambers with good results. But I see that others have found a need to go with higher cambers too.
Seems to depend on track and driver but even Pirelli recommends -3 camber and from what I've seen at the track that seems to be about right. Pirelli and Bob Woodman both say around 30 hot no more than 32 hot.
I have not used Trofeo but I have looked real real hard at them and talked to people using them at the track. The amount of camber they require and there cost turned me away. There performance with the correct set up is really good. I choose to go with 18" wheels and Nitto NT01. 2 sets of Trofeo more than pay for the 18" wheels and the Nitto's are about as fast and last so much longer. That is my thinking with my budget. YMMV
10 hours of of track time (15-20 heat cycles?) and 10 hr round trip? I don't think you'll have much useful tire left when done but I think you'll be fine. I daly my trophies and track. Similar camber. Be extra careful to avoid road hazards like pot holes, debris
, etc) -- they're not going to hold up like a purpose built street tire and you are depending on them for your safety at track after all. I run hot pressures at 29 - 30 psi.
It's a grippy street legal tire, but this is my front after some Nordschleife laps;
These relatively new Trofeo Rs go to trash now.
Could the reason be that when I start driving with cold tires (1.7 bar or so) at the track, I am doing some braking for the first corners to build heat for the tires and race brakes, and this type of braking is just too much for these cold tires? I'm using -3.4 camber or so, which means the most pressure is for that inner area when braking.
I' m not talking about any extreme braking, I have used MPSC, R888 etc. for 10 years without any problems with this kind of warm-up style with the same cold pressures, so I am not going crazy with the tire.
Perhaps with Trofeo R you just have to be much more careful with cold tires?
(Previously I had also rear Trofeo Rs sliding on my wheels..I need a fast street legal tire in 19" size such as Trofeo R, but cannot be totally convinced as of now....)
It's a grippy street legal tire, but this is my front after some Nordschleife laps;
These relatively new Trofeo Rs go to trash now.
Could the reason be that when I start driving with cold tires (1.7 bar or so) at the track, I am doing some braking for the first corners to build heat for the tires and race brakes, and this type of braking is just too much for these cold tires? I'm using -3.4 camber or so, which means the most pressure is for that inner area when braking.
I' m not talking about any extreme braking, I have used MPSC, R888 etc. for 10 years without any problems with this kind of warm-up style with the same cold pressures, so I am not going crazy with the tire.
Perhaps with Trofeo R you just have to be much more careful with cold tires?
(Previously I had also rear Trofeo Rs sliding on my wheels..I need a fast street legal tire in 19" size such as Trofeo R, but cannot be totally convinced as of now....)
I've seen stuff like this happen before
Few explanations
1) Are you sure you have the correct rim & tire size? Maybe a stupid question but I've seen tires split like that before for that reason
2) Did the tire freeze at some point? They are fragile - too much heat or too much cold and the tire starts having issues when mounted
3) Did you hit a kerb somewhere or make a mistake on carousel?
other than that, just bad luck with the tire. yes, I've heard that happen too, new tires that just split and chunk. Hasn't happened to me and I've been through many sets, but again I've seen it happen to others.
I'm on my second season running TRs and had the chance to run MPSC2s on a GT3, same tracks and similar weather. I'm a little frustrated with the TRs. I have to start at 21.5 psi cold to stay under 30 psi hot. Takes 5 laps to get to 29 psi, a very long time. When cold, TR's are a handful. Grip is very unpredictable. When hot at 29 psi, good grip and as others report, good warning before letting go. I'm blessed with super accurate on board pressure sensors. They are within 1/2 psi of my two best gauges. Problem is temps and pressures continue to climb. I have to back off for a lap, usually 2 laps before the end of a session. Wear is good provided I don't try to heat them up too quickly. I might try nitrogen. But, I think I'm going with MPSC2's. I had better experience all season with those.
No chunking, but I'm careful to warm them up properly, relying on acceleration and braking to get the heat first, then cornering faster and faster.
The R last around 25 heat cycles for the rears and around 40 for the fronts, then you feel the grip fall relatively quickly.
You can stretch them more but what's the point!
As a comparison, the Trofeos lasted around 15 Hc before the grip was gone. The R's have a steadier fall in grip and last a lot longer.
2010 GT3 RS running -2.5 front, -2.0 rear. I'll try running -2.7 and -2.3 next time and see what's it worth in lap time. The fronts see to need a little more camber. running around 1:50/1:51 per lap at Mont-Tremblant.
Here are pictures of the R's after close to 40 HC front and 25HC on the rears
04-20-2014, 10:06 PM
