Tell me about this new "faux" manual tranny for the 991
06-21-2012, 02:59 PM
#47
Race Car
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: With A Manual Transmission
Posts: 4,728
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
More weight in a better place is better than more weight in lesser one, but less weight overall is still the best. Don't think you can make a valid argument that either car weighing more than it could is beneficial in any way.
06-21-2012, 03:30 PM
#48
Rennlist Member
Exactly. Car&Driver has a good article about the shared parts. It's a manual gearbox that uses some of the PDK's parts.
I wish people would try using f'ing Google now and again.
http://www.caranddriver.com/features...-pdk-tech-dept
06-21-2012, 03:49 PM
#49
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
wow 256 lbs stated weight of the PDK, and the 7-speed manual Carrera S is just 45 lbs lighter, putting the weight of the 7-speed tranny with clutch, pedals, cables, etc at 211 lbs. Too much.
In the 997 Carrera, PDK is 66 lbs heavier than the 6-speed manual tranny. It is a lot of extra weight. 50 lbs of extra weight is a detrimental 0.6 secs slower lap time around Sebring.
The weight difference between the F430 6-speed manual car and the F430 F1: 13 lbs.
It would be nice if Porsche stops adding unnecessary weight to the GT3. In between the heaviest of all GT3s (2007 mandatory sunroof GT3) and the lightest (2011 4.0 RS) there is just 91 lbs of weight difference. Porsche engineers should be capable of doing a better job, the car needs to be a lot lighter, especially with a tiny engine hanging in the back, compared to what the competitors are using for engines.
In the 997 Carrera, PDK is 66 lbs heavier than the 6-speed manual tranny. It is a lot of extra weight. 50 lbs of extra weight is a detrimental 0.6 secs slower lap time around Sebring.
The weight difference between the F430 6-speed manual car and the F430 F1: 13 lbs.
It would be nice if Porsche stops adding unnecessary weight to the GT3. In between the heaviest of all GT3s (2007 mandatory sunroof GT3) and the lightest (2011 4.0 RS) there is just 91 lbs of weight difference. Porsche engineers should be capable of doing a better job, the car needs to be a lot lighter, especially with a tiny engine hanging in the back, compared to what the competitors are using for engines.
06-21-2012, 04:09 PM
#50
Race Car
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: With A Manual Transmission
Posts: 4,728
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
wow 256 lbs stated weight of the PDK, and the 7-speed manual Carrera S is just 45 lbs lighter, putting the weight of the 7-speed tranny with clutch, pedals, cables, etc at 211 lbs. Too much.
In the 997 Carrera, PDK is 66 lbs heavier than the 6-speed manual tranny. It is a lot of extra weight. 50 lbs of extra weight is a detrimental 0.6 secs slower lap time around Sebring.
The weight difference between the F430 6-speed manual car and the F430 F1: 13 lbs.
It would be nice if Porsche stops adding unnecessary weight to the GT3. In between the heaviest of all GT3s (2007 mandatory sunroof GT3) and the lightest (2011 4.0 RS) there is just 91 lbs of weight difference. Porsche engineers should be capable of doing a better job, the car needs to be a lot lighter, especially with a tiny engine hanging in the back, compared to what the competitors are using for engines.
In the 997 Carrera, PDK is 66 lbs heavier than the 6-speed manual tranny. It is a lot of extra weight. 50 lbs of extra weight is a detrimental 0.6 secs slower lap time around Sebring.
The weight difference between the F430 6-speed manual car and the F430 F1: 13 lbs.
It would be nice if Porsche stops adding unnecessary weight to the GT3. In between the heaviest of all GT3s (2007 mandatory sunroof GT3) and the lightest (2011 4.0 RS) there is just 91 lbs of weight difference. Porsche engineers should be capable of doing a better job, the car needs to be a lot lighter, especially with a tiny engine hanging in the back, compared to what the competitors are using for engines.
06-21-2012, 04:53 PM
#51
Three Wheelin'
Some items to remember
Manual gearbox warranty claims are too expensive (confirmed to me by both Porsche and Audi execs during a Le Mans weekend)
Developing a production gearbox from scratch is too expensive for PAG, its a VAG thing and even then largely done by Ricardo - http://www.ricardo.com/en-GB/Our-Mar...Transmissions/ -
If 911 drivers didn't break their drive trains with such monotonous regularity, there would be less push for a semi-automated solution.
Manual gearbox warranty claims are too expensive (confirmed to me by both Porsche and Audi execs during a Le Mans weekend)
Developing a production gearbox from scratch is too expensive for PAG, its a VAG thing and even then largely done by Ricardo - http://www.ricardo.com/en-GB/Our-Mar...Transmissions/ -
If 911 drivers didn't break their drive trains with such monotonous regularity, there would be less push for a semi-automated solution.
Thanks!
06-21-2012, 05:54 PM
#52
Race Director
I don't mean to jump in the middle of this, but I will say that until I autox'd my PDK Carrera S for the first time, I didn't have anything close to a full appreciation of how good PDK can be. If nothing else, using sport+ auto mode on the street is really undesireable, and for sure I would have been a fool to drive my car on public roads the way I do on track. I'm sure you're no fool either, so it seems unlikely that you got a very good idea of PDK's full capabilities from a street drive. I don't mean to speak for Mike (mdrums) but I suspect that's where he's coming from too.
06-21-2012, 06:42 PM
#53
Race Car
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: With A Manual Transmission
Posts: 4,728
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
A flat foot shift is a flat foot shift is a flat foot shift. Public road, track, auto-x.
Cornering has nothing to do with Pdk vs manual.
Hence my comment about shifting in corners. The only time its different is when you change gears.
To me that is. I've driven enough paddle shift cars and spent enough time in a Pdk car to know its not for me. You can drive in auto and go even faster, I don't think I need to do that either to know im not interested.
I don't think many here would argue that, and that driving in auto is less involving than using paddles. But you can focus more on your lines than having to worry about watching revs, or moving your fingers.
See where I'm going?
Cornering has nothing to do with Pdk vs manual.
Hence my comment about shifting in corners. The only time its different is when you change gears.
To me that is. I've driven enough paddle shift cars and spent enough time in a Pdk car to know its not for me. You can drive in auto and go even faster, I don't think I need to do that either to know im not interested.
I don't think many here would argue that, and that driving in auto is less involving than using paddles. But you can focus more on your lines than having to worry about watching revs, or moving your fingers.
See where I'm going?
06-21-2012, 09:03 PM
#54
Rennlist Member
you guys are all off the point of the original post.
we are talking about manual transmissions exclusively, or should be. the PDK is it's own thing. Leave MDrums alone- he needs a PDK and I'm all for that.
I'm somewhat appalled at the current GT3 manual transmission being anything other than slightly modified for the future gt3. It's the best and most robust manual transmission in any car- period. I love manual transmissions and they have their place...my 599 GTB was a manual tranny and I loved that visceral feel.
this new bastardized rotary geared 7 speed manual has no place in the gt3, in my opinion. if they're gonna change it, they should use the 6 speed from the new Turbo- still a "normal" manual transmission- and to be honest I think that's what will happen. There is no reason for a 7th gear in a GT3, hell in all my track days (including running at Fontana topping out at 165mph or so) I never even NEEDED 6th.
porsche: please keep the manual strong, robust, and with that rifle bolt feel of the 997GT3. don't use this BS 991 tranny from the carrera.
we are talking about manual transmissions exclusively, or should be. the PDK is it's own thing. Leave MDrums alone- he needs a PDK and I'm all for that.
I'm somewhat appalled at the current GT3 manual transmission being anything other than slightly modified for the future gt3. It's the best and most robust manual transmission in any car- period. I love manual transmissions and they have their place...my 599 GTB was a manual tranny and I loved that visceral feel.
this new bastardized rotary geared 7 speed manual has no place in the gt3, in my opinion. if they're gonna change it, they should use the 6 speed from the new Turbo- still a "normal" manual transmission- and to be honest I think that's what will happen. There is no reason for a 7th gear in a GT3, hell in all my track days (including running at Fontana topping out at 165mph or so) I never even NEEDED 6th.
porsche: please keep the manual strong, robust, and with that rifle bolt feel of the 997GT3. don't use this BS 991 tranny from the carrera.
06-21-2012, 09:11 PM
#55
Rennlist Member
I get that...that is fine...I just don't understand why most everyone hear puts PDK down? Especially when none of them have any real experience with PDK. they have no idea what the heck they are talking about. I respect most everyone on these forums...untill lately...I can now see who is full of themselves and really know nothing.
I haven't driven a GT2, Turbo, GT3, Fiat, Vette and so forth on a track...which car is better...maybe the guy making $50k a year driving the 20 year old gutted Miata or BMW is a better driver than all of us....who really knows or cares....I'm just happy to drive on the track with some people I consider friends. I never think my car is better than someone else's car...at least we are out there on the track doing what we love.
I haven't driven a GT2, Turbo, GT3, Fiat, Vette and so forth on a track...which car is better...maybe the guy making $50k a year driving the 20 year old gutted Miata or BMW is a better driver than all of us....who really knows or cares....I'm just happy to drive on the track with some people I consider friends. I never think my car is better than someone else's car...at least we are out there on the track doing what we love.
I am arguing (and now I wish I hadn't bothered) that this is a pointless argument, there doesn't need to be a winner and loser, I want you to have your PDK and love it, I want to have a manual and love it... we all win! I know the benefits of PDK vs manual and appreciate those, they (for me) just detract from the experience I want on track thats all ... it does not make one tx bad and the other good ... there is no argument to win here ... simply consumer choice! (I hope)
its all moot anyway, since the last 'real' GT3 was the 997.2
best regards
Larry
06-21-2012, 09:31 PM
#56
Race Director
Why are you jumping to conclusions, I've driven one, just not on track, which by your previous statement means I don't know what I'm talking about. I'm trying to determine how driving one fast on the street makes ones opinion void vs driving one fast on the track. Please explain.
The difference is that I don't care if people think my car stinks. I've had plenty of GT3 guys scoff at my car, and even more people tell me what it can't do. One guy called it a fake GT2RS right in my face (didn't know it was my car). That doesn't degrade my enjoyment 1 iota. I'm cool with it because I enjoy it.
How am I arguing that manual is better than PDK? I've said nothing of the sort. The are pro's and con's for each, and no one has said otherwise. No one has said that PDK shouldn't exist, or sucks, you are blowing this completely out of proportion. Feel free to calm down now. It's just a debate of the merit's of each based on preference and opinion. Nothing is being signed into law.
The difference is that I don't care if people think my car stinks. I've had plenty of GT3 guys scoff at my car, and even more people tell me what it can't do. One guy called it a fake GT2RS right in my face (didn't know it was my car). That doesn't degrade my enjoyment 1 iota. I'm cool with it because I enjoy it.
How am I arguing that manual is better than PDK? I've said nothing of the sort. The are pro's and con's for each, and no one has said otherwise. No one has said that PDK shouldn't exist, or sucks, you are blowing this completely out of proportion. Feel free to calm down now. It's just a debate of the merit's of each based on preference and opinion. Nothing is being signed into law.
We are on the same page...just a debate but it irks me when people...not you in particular...start in on how PDK sucks when they never really driven one in it's full potential and that is all I'm getting at.
06-21-2012, 09:39 PM
#57
Race Director
A flat foot shift is a flat foot shift is a flat foot shift. Public road, track, auto-x.
Cornering has nothing to do with Pdk vs manual.
Hence my comment about shifting in corners. The only time its different is when you change gears.
To me that is. I've driven enough paddle shift cars and spent enough time in a Pdk car to know its not for me. You can drive in auto and go even faster, I don't think I need to do that either to know im not interested.
I don't think many here would argue that, and that driving in auto is less involving than using paddles. But you can focus more on your lines than having to worry about watching revs, or moving your fingers.
See where I'm going?
Cornering has nothing to do with Pdk vs manual.
Hence my comment about shifting in corners. The only time its different is when you change gears.
To me that is. I've driven enough paddle shift cars and spent enough time in a Pdk car to know its not for me. You can drive in auto and go even faster, I don't think I need to do that either to know im not interested.
I don't think many here would argue that, and that driving in auto is less involving than using paddles. But you can focus more on your lines than having to worry about watching revs, or moving your fingers.
See where I'm going?
However...and I know you don't care...you'd be faster in a pdk and manual...like cars....just saying.
Personally for me...pdk was a godsend!
06-21-2012, 09:44 PM
#58
Race Director
Mike, Mike, Mike ... I am *not* putting the PDK down at all, that was not the intent of my post, quite the opposite, (I was impressed with PDK on track) I'm not full of myself (am I?), nor do I think I know anything that anyone else does or does not know (do I?)...
I am arguing (and now I wish I hadn't bothered) that this is a pointless argument, there doesn't need to be a winner and loser, I want you to have your PDK and love it, I want to have a manual and love it... we all win! I know the benefits of PDK vs manual and appreciate those, they (for me) just detract from the experience I want on track thats all ... it does not make one tx bad and the other good ... there is no argument to win here ... simply consumer choice! (I hope)
its all moot anyway, since the last 'real' GT3 was the 997.2
best regards
Larry
I am arguing (and now I wish I hadn't bothered) that this is a pointless argument, there doesn't need to be a winner and loser, I want you to have your PDK and love it, I want to have a manual and love it... we all win! I know the benefits of PDK vs manual and appreciate those, they (for me) just detract from the experience I want on track thats all ... it does not make one tx bad and the other good ... there is no argument to win here ... simply consumer choice! (I hope)
its all moot anyway, since the last 'real' GT3 was the 997.2
best regards
Larry
As far as the 997.2 is the last GT3...well lets wait and see what Porsche brings out and what certain race series end up racing. Right now Porsche 997's with the 9A1 engine are doing great things in the Rolex Grand Am Continental series with BGB and Rum Bum. Yes those are stock based Carrera S and Carrera GTS cars and not GT3 but this engine is proving itself. But let's see what Porsche does in the next couple of years in the Patron Series, Rolex Grand Am GT and ALMS.
06-21-2012, 09:52 PM
#59
Race Director
9A1 engine is lighter and sits lower than outgoing engine. That makes up for something huh?
wow 256 lbs stated weight of the PDK, and the 7-speed manual Carrera S is just 45 lbs lighter, putting the weight of the 7-speed tranny with clutch, pedals, cables, etc at 211 lbs. Too much.
In the 997 Carrera, PDK is 66 lbs heavier than the 6-speed manual tranny. It is a lot of extra weight. 50 lbs of extra weight is a detrimental 0.6 secs slower lap time around Sebring.
The weight difference between the F430 6-speed manual car and the F430 F1: 13 lbs.
It would be nice if Porsche stops adding unnecessary weight to the GT3. In between the heaviest of all GT3s (2007 mandatory sunroof GT3) and the lightest (2011 4.0 RS) there is just 91 lbs of weight difference. Porsche engineers should be capable of doing a better job, the car needs to be a lot lighter, especially with a tiny engine hanging in the back, compared to what the competitors are using for engines.
In the 997 Carrera, PDK is 66 lbs heavier than the 6-speed manual tranny. It is a lot of extra weight. 50 lbs of extra weight is a detrimental 0.6 secs slower lap time around Sebring.
The weight difference between the F430 6-speed manual car and the F430 F1: 13 lbs.
It would be nice if Porsche stops adding unnecessary weight to the GT3. In between the heaviest of all GT3s (2007 mandatory sunroof GT3) and the lightest (2011 4.0 RS) there is just 91 lbs of weight difference. Porsche engineers should be capable of doing a better job, the car needs to be a lot lighter, especially with a tiny engine hanging in the back, compared to what the competitors are using for engines.
06-21-2012, 10:11 PM
#60
Race Car
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: With A Manual Transmission
Posts: 4,728
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
Yes see where you're going...it just your opinion...I agree with this...it would more more involving switching your own gears and heel and toe is more fun...you are just out there having fun and working on these skills....get it...no problem.:reckon:
However...and I know you don't care...you'd be faster in a pdk and manual...like cars....just saying.
Personally for me...pdk was a godsend!
However...and I know you don't care...you'd be faster in a pdk and manual...like cars....just saying.
Personally for me...pdk was a godsend!
There is enough evidence to suggest that a well trained driver can match PDK in terms of lap times, by maximizing the weight discrepancy in the braking zones. Porsche test drivers have tested equal with PDK and then on the 997.2 Porsche put sport cups on the pdk car so they could claim a gap. I'd rather be that guy match the pdk with driving skill, not just accepting what magazines, or manufacturer propaganda tells me. And I'll try until there isn't a manual left on the planet.
Besides, I will be racing at some point, and PDK has not lasted a racing season in any car that I know of. And there would have to be a LOT of them to do so before I trusted it. So I'll stick to refining my shifting skills. I would take a real sequential though as there is still a high level of skill required.
The gap is small enough for me to strive for perfection, and PDK not proven enough for me to stick with old faithful, but that's just me, I don't back down to anyone/anything.