stujelly

wow this is overwhelming.

What great advice from everyone. If I get time I will try and talley up the votes but right now I am going to go check out the mx-5 cup.

I do like the idea of a 99 or 2000 911 with the aero kit for the track. That would be fun too.

So much to study.

Thank you again for all the feed back.

Kaiservon

I race spec E36 (1995 325i) in bmwcca club racing. It's a perfect car to learn how to drive. Very balanced, reliable, cheap to maintain, and not too slow or too fast (1:41.5 at RA), and huge aftermarket support. Definitely should be worth a look.

TRAKCAR

I understand. On one side any car will feel slow to a Kart champion, on the other hand you want it to be safe.

Face it, he will pretty much show you the fast way around in your RS before you know it

He will kill a 99 or 2000 911 within 20 track events, so another equation is do you want him to learn to fix the car and related cost?

An old or newer911 to break and fix or a fully supported Miata? So tough....
Just keep him safe is #1.

mooty

i have had lots of miatas including pinata.
as you know, year ago, you me and jeff did 1:41 or faster at LS wiht me on R888 in 6gt3. we are faster now. so why is mx5 cup said to be faster than RS? i thnk jeff just did 1:36 in his 3.8RS, stock but on R6.
indeed, based on hp, mx5 is probably faster in turns.

hum.. this is very intriguing. CJ, i pm'd you as well.

luffe

Dear stujelly, I hope it´s OK I post my question here instead of creating a new thread.

I am 26, I don´t have a car, but borrow my father´s 991 extensively (whenever I visit him, hehe), and I´ve done the PSDS Precision and Performance course in a 991.

The plan now is to get a Porsche for DE use (it has to be a Porsche, as that´s the only brand that is allowed on my P-club´s many track meetings). My father would sponsor it, but the price of course has to be within reason.

Contrary to the OP´s son, I don´t have any karting experience, my interest in cars basically just sky-rocketed after I recently did the PSDS Precision training (most fun I´ve had with my pants on, hehe) - so I am a complete newbie.

I don´t need a car for transportation, so the car would (almost) only be for track use (of course I would like to take road trips / drive to the track).

My goal is this: have lots of fun and become a better (and SAFE) driver.

One of the instructors in Leipzig recommended buying a stock 996 C2 and throw in racing seats. ABS and Anti-Spin is there, and I take it that newer generations of PSM would offer to many nanny´s to increase a newbie´s driving skills.

And I think that older models with no ABS would be to scary for me...(!)
There is also the maintenance issue with older generations, my formal education is in economics/statistics and my mecanical knowledge is sub-par to say the least, so I would want a car where I could focus on increasing my driving skills, and not worry (or worry less) about maintenance.

So do you guys think a 996 C2 is the way to go? Would a 996 GT3 (MK2 CS) be a complete overkill for me?

THANK YOU!!

Carrera GT

Interesting perspectives from every post here so far. I would not have thought of an MX5 Cup, but it does sound about right -- to be fair, they're nowhere near GT3 RS times, but for competition, wheel to wheel, learning to drive a car that itself knows how to drive and will teach you where it wants to be touched and held, it's sort of the MILF to pop the track driver's cherry ...

My kids will be in built long nose cars (72 911 2.7 MFI, stock geometry with after-market durability bits, Jerry Woods, Elephant, WEVO) ... "you build it, you can drive it" sort of thing. Not streetable. Full cage, neck and halo, over-engineered for fire, impact and roll-over since no track in the USA has anywhere near adequate safety.)

I agree with comments that a 996 GT3 is a lot of car. Some kids coming out of karts will adapt quickly and shine, but it's high stakes and not a lot of competition around the left coast. If there was a flourishing PCA, POC or whatever then maybe, but generally, I'd rather "less is more."

My only other (strenuous) advice is to avoid club coaches and HPDE instructors like the plague. 99.99% of them can't find their apex with a mirror and map if it was a multiple choice quiz. Get a pro instructor, do branded driving instruction (Porsche mostly, but also maybe Benz and Ferrari, some race ed stuff, but I'm out of the loop so I won't recount my preferences, it's a matter of getting current advice.) Just don't expose new drivers to the "instructor" world of club track days. Better to have no advice than have to unlearn bad habits.

So far, just for reading this thread, if someone can get me an MX5 Cup to rent for Laguna and pass sound at 92 dB, just show me the dotted line ... : )

C.J. Ichiban

I've seen MX5 cups run 1:39-1:40 at mazda raceway laguna seca on ****ty bridgestone tires. on hoosiers they can do 1:37s.

new mx5 is in the 50-60k range, but that's with a 12500 cage and 12000 sachs 3 way suspension- the same that the 996GT3 Cup comes with basically. used is in the 30-40k range depending on how many spares the PO is willing to throw in. maybe they'll be cheaper now for me, I just bought a Mazda dealership so donor cars are a line item expense (http://www.cjwilsonmazda.com/)

MX5 cup runs a stock tire, but for NASA racing, SCCA, etc you can run whatever you want. I ran mine on practice days at MSR cresson on Kumho tires which were really cheap. only thing that I ever needed to do in a non-race environment was change tires every 4-5 track days, change brake pads every 10-20 track days, oil change here and there. when you race in a car like this, contact is inevitable (just like in a spec racer ford) but all the body panels are in the 150-400 range. doors and windshields are a bit more.

HP is 175ish

my team's next event is at Road America this weekend, and we will be there with the "normal" mx5 cup cars and grand-am CT challenge.

I know you guys have a hard time wrapping your head around a 175HP/2600lb car doing similar times to GT3, GT3RS but the bottom line is the suspension is so good, the grip is so insane, and the car is so light that you really don't have to brake as much compared to a 911. you do a lot of rotating via footwork and the cars are really loud and fun.

the main reason I got started racing (did my first DE in a 3.8L andial 993TT, then '08 GT3, then 08RS) with Mazdas: the front bumper for a MX5 cup car is a few hundred bucks. brakes are 100 bucks. an engine costs 3500 bucks. that's the cost of a spare set of wheels for a gt3!

Money is an object, especially when you have all the safety equipment (6 points, fire, halo seat, etc) to add to anything. it shocks me that for DE stuff you can drive in short sleeves, in shorts, no gloves, etc. maybe I've just got more to lose but I treat myself like you guys should treat your kids or yourselves. don't take any chances- just be safe.

also with CGT I agree on the club coach stuff- just get a pro to drive your car for 8 laps and use the data system to figure out where you're at. much more to the point and does away with the social promotion type of coaching that's out there.

I know it seems like I'm schilling for mazda, but the fact is that racing porsches is REALLY expensive and I'll save that for the future- I have no problem working my way up, just like I did at 'work' and like I did on motorcycles- (vespa 150, honda cbr250, ducati monster 796, ducati multistrada 1200)

Carrera GT

Ducati 996R. : )

37's at Laguna is damn quick even on Hoosies.

Another post in this thread suggest 40's, which is good quick GT3 territory, but a hot shoe in a 3.8 RS is 36's and a friend in a 4.0 is targeting 34 on Hoosiers. I chased him around in my 3.8 and posted 36's and I have no idea how he's already into the 34's, but the idiots at Laguna have since paved the inside of the Corkscrew exit berm, so now anyone willing to take the jump can carve a second off.

Sometimes I wonder if these people have any sense of their custodial role to not go out and touch up the smile on Mona Lisa because she's not Gaga enough. Sheesh.

C.J. Ichiban

price per second of lap time, the 4.0RS is not really comparable. a 500hp car with an amazing set up should run circles around a 175hp car- my point is largely a generalization- the 1:39 range at LS is hauling the mail either way. if it takes Pat Long in a GT3 to beat kids fresh out of karts in a little mx5 the point being made is that the MX5 is a capable track car.

DP35 is another user to ask as he's actually won a ton of national races in spec miata and drove with me and against me the last few years in mazdas at T-Hill 25 races. running the bypass, well driven cheater spec miatas are around 2:01 at thunderhill and mx5 cup cars on hoosiers break into the 1:59s...and that's in the middle of december with air temps, tire temps and track temps at their coldest.

also- mx5 cars are VERY ADEPT at driving off line, two wheels off, etc. how else are we able to pass the goofballs driving 996TTs and 997TTS on track days? LOL.

of course I'm personally working my way up to a Duc1098 or a Pangiale but that's another thread entirely.

in regards to the idiots at laguna- let's just agree to complain about the idiotic sound limit. I love everything else about that track.

Carrera GT

Definitely not making an apples to apples with the 4.0 ... just idle conversation about 911 times of late.

The "spec piñata" events and drivers have a deserved reputation for their "creative" interpretation of racing surface. Then again, the point-n-squirt 911 Turbo drivers deserve their criticism.

As for the 1098, it just doesn't have the lust and raw sex appeal of riding the 996R and 998R --some prefer one over the other, I find them both to be the apex of Ducati. Quicker bikes come every year and abound these days, you can probably get a 150hp Vespa. : ) With VW/Audi now holding the balance sheet, I fear it's game over for the raw innovation of Duc. We'll see more of the "profitable" cruiser "lifestyle" bikes and less of the "this will rip your face off and show it to you as you gasp you last breath" machine straight from Moto GP and world superbike with a plate and some turn signal lights hanging off zip-ties ...

The bike you should consider is the Desmosedici -- surely you've gazed off into the distance and thought about it many times. There's a two or three of them riding locally and words fail me to describe the sound and feeling of that bike. One of these days I need to get back into my leathers from 1999 and put a knee down on one of those at Laguna ... nothing else drains the adrenal gland quite like feeling a Ducati put down power.

turkis_tii

My question also, son has six years in karts, 5-day Skip Barber, and we are renting cars to see what he likes. Depends on what YOUR son wants to do! If racing, get a momentum car like a 944 or SM. DE and autox probably won' satisfy need for adreneoine. All of our coaches have said that high-powered cars will not teach good racing skills: they need to learn basic skills, especially when going from karts to cars, i.e., learning weight transfer, etc. Next car we will rent/test will be Spec Racer Ford. Both SM (and now MX5 as mentioned above) and SRF offer tight, competitive racing and lowest costs. Also look at Skip Barber series!

utkinpol

i would say - help your son to get a proper job with salary high enough for him to afford his own toys. he should decide for himself what car he can afford to buy, maintain and support.

if he has no experience at all then he has to go with a club that has good programs for drivers. miata has a good club, bmw has a good club.

there are plenty of E36 and E39 based cars. stay with something under $20K bugget and discuss with your son if he really wants fully caged prepped non-street legal racer car. i think a decently clean steet legal E39 3.2L car may be a very good starter platform - enough power and cheap to maintain. unless you want to buy this car for yourself pretty much and spend your own time and budget on maintenance and support. but it is up to you.

mdrums

I'm trying to get my head around this ..... There are dads buying there kids Porsches to go run at track events?

I got to "borrow" my dads '71 Ford pick up truck...until he caught me drag racing it at the local makeshift dragstrip....then I rode my bike to school my senior year.

RSRanger

I love your comments and agree but times have surely changed.
These are not our Dad's times.
In my day I had a '55 Chevy that leaked more oil than the Exxon Valdez.
At 18 I got an M16 as my "best friend". All I wanted to do was be the meanest MF'er I could be, survive and return to "the world" and buy a '69 Z28 Camaro.
That was my world then now nearly two generations later as an old fart with three boys (13,15 &17) life is much different. For the most part kids expect more today. One tries to instill value and responsibility but it's hard.
The belief, you got to earn it, has been blurred.
Kids see what one has but seem to obliterate what it took to get there.

Ranger (Sua Sponte)

mdrums

Yep I guess the world of parenting and raising children to become responsible young adults is going away. What do I know I don't have kids but it seems like teens in today's world don't respect what others have or how hard people that don't get handed wealth work to achieve.
A major part of my job brings me around young 20 something's and I'd estimate that 95% of them have no idea the work, responsibility, sacrifice, street smarts and people skills it takes to do what I do. I get asked questions a lot about how I got my job. When I tell them how most all in my position got our jobs these teens and 20 something's don't know what to say or think. They think they think,they just should be handed everything...from the professional musical instruments to the job I do....geesh I fear what society will be like.

Ok rant off...don't care if I offended anyone...get thicker skin...y'all put it out there...now my feelings are in the open on this subject.