My GT2 build over the last year
05-22-2012, 10:06 PM
#46
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05-22-2012, 10:26 PM
#47
Nick, congrats on the build, really nice.
I wonder if the car would heat soak with the VTGs in high boost, as it's a clear characteristic from VTGs, specially using a big compressor wheel with a small but variable unchanged backhousing. I'm skeptical to see sustained high HP on those turbos lap after lap on gasoline.
Would like to hear your input once you have data (intake temps from multiple laps) consistent max speed and also timming tables.
Please don't take this in a bad way, as I really want to see it work.
good luck !
I wonder if the car would heat soak with the VTGs in high boost, as it's a clear characteristic from VTGs, specially using a big compressor wheel with a small but variable unchanged backhousing. I'm skeptical to see sustained high HP on those turbos lap after lap on gasoline.
Would like to hear your input once you have data (intake temps from multiple laps) consistent max speed and also timming tables.
Please don't take this in a bad way, as I really want to see it work.
good luck !
05-22-2012, 10:57 PM
#49
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Eduardo- I have some of that data but not all of it from Sebring. EGT runs pretty cool, as does the IAT. Oil temps are an issue under extended load (20+ minutes) but that's to be expected. The various tunes on the two ECUs are fuel type based- the higher the octane available the brighter we can burn the wick. I don't know how the other tuners do it, but with the higher output files we disconnect the MAF sensors otherwise they will burn out from the high airflow. As long as I use the correct (ie. enough octane) fuel for the given map I have zero ignition retard under pretty much all circumstances below 90F. Most of that should be credited to the high efficiency intercoolers and billet compressor housing- temperature stability is the reason to go that route.
The other thing loads of people forget- Champion warranties the build to match the factory. Their tunes are probably the most conservative available because of said warranty, so other shops using Champion parts can and do get far more power, and Champion freely admit that.
The other thing loads of people forget- Champion warranties the build to match the factory. Their tunes are probably the most conservative available because of said warranty, so other shops using Champion parts can and do get far more power, and Champion freely admit that.
Last edited by Nick Wong; 05-22-2012 at 11:02 PM. Reason: Added info.
05-23-2012, 02:43 AM
#50
...
The other thing loads of people forget- Champion warranties the build to match the factory. Their tunes are probably the most conservative available because of said warranty, so other shops using Champion parts can and do get far more power, and Champion freely admit that.
The other thing loads of people forget- Champion warranties the build to match the factory. Their tunes are probably the most conservative available because of said warranty, so other shops using Champion parts can and do get far more power, and Champion freely admit that.
Power and reliability. I understand there are skeptics.
Ranger (Sua Sponte)
05-23-2012, 06:13 AM
#51
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I wonder if the car would heat soak with the VTGs in high boost, as it's a clear characteristic from VTGs, specially using a big compressor wheel with a small but variable unchanged backhousing. I'm skeptical to see sustained high HP on those turbos lap after lap on gasoline.
Would like to hear your input once you have data (intake temps from multiple laps) consistent max speed and also timing tables.
Would like to hear your input once you have data (intake temps from multiple laps) consistent max speed and also timing tables.
So he is saying at 30degC ambient there is no ignition retard ?
Ignition retard and boost reduction begins for most tunes on these engines at around 50degC intake temp so the assertion is that this engine can keep IAT at 50C in 30C ambient because of
"the high efficiency intercoolers and billet compressor housing"
This is not possible using Secan intercoolers (which hopefully should be as good as the CM ones ?) so just how good are these CM 68mm VTG turbos ?
If there is any truth in these claims can CM not see that they would sell many more sets all round the world, I would buy some in a heartbeat (together with all the other nice shiny bits like those oversized MAF tubes, and even your intercoolers if you are prepared to have them properly tested ?) if I could see some credible evidence of the claims above FFS please shut me up and take some money off me by showing me the data (this is aimed at CM not Mr Wong
)BTW for the high oil temperatures most people are using the PWR front rads, they are made for Porsche MS (you probably have these already ?)
05-23-2012, 11:06 AM
#52
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Nick,
Congrats on this awesome build. If I ever get rid of my gt3 I will definitely get into one of these street beasts!
Enjoy it and drive it like you stole it otherwise its no fun, lol!
Congrats on this awesome build. If I ever get rid of my gt3 I will definitely get into one of these street beasts!
Enjoy it and drive it like you stole it otherwise its no fun, lol!
05-23-2012, 11:24 AM
#53
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I am still trying to decide on an OLOA strategy for 2013. Either keep the GT3 , lighten it and get a guards LSD OR sell the GT3 and buy a ringer, mid engine, light weight beast with monster power with RWD. Either way, recon track days and some pro-coaching are both must dos. I think top 10 is feasible with the GT3 and top 5 (or close) with the ringer.
Will post when I plan on doing the recons an maybe we can get a group together.
Carl.
Will post when I plan on doing the recons an maybe we can get a group together.
Carl.
05-23-2012, 12:32 PM
#54
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Speedy Ralph- thanks!
Yorkshireman- make your decision soon. One Lap is like LeMans when it comes to prep work, you need a full year to get everything good to go and even then you'll never know if it'll be good enough for the race. We can definitely work together on reconn once Brocker figures out the tracks and route...
No idea what Toby wrote since he's on my ignore list...
Yorkshireman- make your decision soon. One Lap is like LeMans when it comes to prep work, you need a full year to get everything good to go and even then you'll never know if it'll be good enough for the race. We can definitely work together on reconn once Brocker figures out the tracks and route...
No idea what Toby wrote since he's on my ignore list...
05-23-2012, 12:50 PM
#55
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I am still trying to decide on an OLOA strategy for 2013. Either keep the GT3 , lighten it and get a guards LSD OR sell the GT3 and buy a ringer, mid engine, light weight beast with monster power with RWD. Either way, recon track days and some pro-coaching are both must dos. I think top 10 is feasible with the GT3 and top 5 (or close) with the ringer.
Will post when I plan on doing the recons an maybe we can get a group together.
Carl.
Will post when I plan on doing the recons an maybe we can get a group together.
Carl.
I'm up for recon anytime, after all I hauled to High Plains for testing.
After watching Ian in 09 in the GT2 beating the GT-r's at Little Talladega in monsoon conditions I don't think it is at that much disadvantage. One thing Porsche's do well is put down the power on corner exit so I don't think the GT-r has an advantage there. Where I do see the GT-r advantage is the close ratio gearbox and instantaneous shifting preventing boost falloff when shifting. Even when no lift shifting in the 6GT2 we still had significant boost falloff. Maybe not as big an issue with the new VTG Turbos in the 7GT2.
GT-r's are fragile at the levels attainable by the Keen/Catesby cars but until somebody can put pressure on Leh by winning a TT or 2 Leh can run in safe mode.
You want a car that can beat the GT-r with a skilled driver you don't need to go any farther than the Riley MK XXII Track Day Car
. Autox and the One Lap. Yes track speeds are higher than AutoX speeds no question about that. The advantage a National level Autox can bring to the table is the ability to go FAASST right out of the box as he has to get it done in 3 runs.
Track pre driving is a big advantage but I believe knowing your car's abilities and being able to read a track are just as, if not more, important than pre driving.
All this is IMHO and YMMV.
Peter
05-23-2012, 01:05 PM
#56
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2013 One Lap route thoughts. It will be East of the Mississippi for sure and a very good chance Sebring will be on the schedule.
The following tracks are Brock favorites
CMP Brian Smith multiple OLOA winner is a good friend
BMW Center Greer, SC As long as they sponsor if we are anywhere close we will run there
VIR Another Brock favorite and we haven't been there since 08 also can run 3 TT. North, South, and Full course
NJMP Brock likes and can run both courses
NOLA. Brock wanted to run in 2011 but wasn't ready so always possible. Brock also likes to run at least 1 new track if possible
Mid Ohio. Good last day track but can be tough to get Friday date
Beavrun of Nelson Ledges both are cheap rentals and good Friday tracks
Barber. Brock likes but scheduling and cost can be an issue
AMP. Big ??? is noise issues falls under new track
Road Atlanta. Brock doesn't like feels to dangerous for OLOA
Watkins Glen. Run in the past but scheduling has been an issue
The key is Brock is in this for $$$ and track rental can add up quickly if to many expensive tracks on the schedule.
Peter
The following tracks are Brock favorites
CMP Brian Smith multiple OLOA winner is a good friend
BMW Center Greer, SC As long as they sponsor if we are anywhere close we will run there
VIR Another Brock favorite and we haven't been there since 08 also can run 3 TT. North, South, and Full course
NJMP Brock likes and can run both courses
NOLA. Brock wanted to run in 2011 but wasn't ready so always possible. Brock also likes to run at least 1 new track if possible
Mid Ohio. Good last day track but can be tough to get Friday date
Beavrun of Nelson Ledges both are cheap rentals and good Friday tracks
Barber. Brock likes but scheduling and cost can be an issue
AMP. Big ??? is noise issues falls under new track
Road Atlanta. Brock doesn't like feels to dangerous for OLOA
Watkins Glen. Run in the past but scheduling has been an issue
The key is Brock is in this for $$$ and track rental can add up quickly if to many expensive tracks on the schedule.
Peter
05-23-2012, 01:30 PM
#57
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Peter, when is the OLOA schedule typically published?
I think that an autocrosser has a bigger advantage on the unknown tracks, but nothing can beat knowing the actual track.
As an example, my first day at Sebring, just over a year ago, I came to the track with experience from multiple tracks nationwide, and autocrossing for 10 years continuously, but zero track time at Sebring.
My first session on street tires, best lap was my first ever lap 2:30.430. On my 2nd session I went down to 2:24.368 on the same tires. On my third session I switched to Hoosier A6, and dropped to 2:22.901. Earlier this year on the same Hoosiers I ran a 2:17.5. I would say my lap times have dropped at least 8 secs since my very first day on the first session given equal tires. Make that a 3 OLOA laps and the difference is 24 secs, 24 secs moves me up or down significantly.
A good strategy is to show up to an unknown track, time yourself. Then get a coach and work with the coach at that specific track, compare the lap time difference, multiply by 3, and check where the experienced lap times vs. no-experience lap times would put you, based on the gap.
I think that an autocrosser has a bigger advantage on the unknown tracks, but nothing can beat knowing the actual track.
As an example, my first day at Sebring, just over a year ago, I came to the track with experience from multiple tracks nationwide, and autocrossing for 10 years continuously, but zero track time at Sebring.
My first session on street tires, best lap was my first ever lap 2:30.430. On my 2nd session I went down to 2:24.368 on the same tires. On my third session I switched to Hoosier A6, and dropped to 2:22.901. Earlier this year on the same Hoosiers I ran a 2:17.5. I would say my lap times have dropped at least 8 secs since my very first day on the first session given equal tires. Make that a 3 OLOA laps and the difference is 24 secs, 24 secs moves me up or down significantly.
A good strategy is to show up to an unknown track, time yourself. Then get a coach and work with the coach at that specific track, compare the lap time difference, multiply by 3, and check where the experienced lap times vs. no-experience lap times would put you, based on the gap.
05-23-2012, 01:48 PM
#58
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It is hard to get real data from Nick, just snippets like "no timing pull at 90degF"
So he is saying at 30degC ambient there is no ignition retard ?
Ignition retard and boost reduction begins for most tunes on these engines at around 50degC intake temp so the assertion is that this engine can keep IAT at 50C in 30C ambient because of
"the high efficiency intercoolers and billet compressor housing"
This is not possible using Secan intercoolers (which hopefully should be as good as the CM ones ?) so just how good are these CM 68mm VTG turbos ?
If there is any truth in these claims can CM not see that they would sell many more sets all round the world, I would buy some in a heartbeat (together with all the other nice shiny bits like those oversized MAF tubes, and even your intercoolers if you are prepared to have them properly tested ?) if I could see some credible evidence of the claims above FFS please shut me up and take some money off me by showing me the data (this is aimed at CM not Mr Wong)
BTW for the high oil temperatures most people are using the PWR front rads, they are made for Porsche MS (you probably have these already ?)
So he is saying at 30degC ambient there is no ignition retard ?
Ignition retard and boost reduction begins for most tunes on these engines at around 50degC intake temp so the assertion is that this engine can keep IAT at 50C in 30C ambient because of
"the high efficiency intercoolers and billet compressor housing"
This is not possible using Secan intercoolers (which hopefully should be as good as the CM ones ?) so just how good are these CM 68mm VTG turbos ?
If there is any truth in these claims can CM not see that they would sell many more sets all round the world, I would buy some in a heartbeat (together with all the other nice shiny bits like those oversized MAF tubes, and even your intercoolers if you are prepared to have them properly tested ?) if I could see some credible evidence of the claims above FFS please shut me up and take some money off me by showing me the data (this is aimed at CM not Mr Wong
)BTW for the high oil temperatures most people are using the PWR front rads, they are made for Porsche MS (you probably have these already ?)
Is this build thread also serving as a fs post?
05-23-2012, 02:00 PM
#59
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Oh, so that's what he wrote. No need to respond. This guy just likes to validate his choices by putting others down. See other boards like teamspeed.com where people call him "douchy." I'm too old to play that game. If he wants info from Champion they are a phone call away and it isn't my problem either way. Funny thing is I'm sure we would have a laugh over a pint, but online I don't need his drama.
And no, it's not for sale. Never was. Rad and I have a private joke about GT2s fom Sebring, we get along just fine.
And no, it's not for sale. Never was. Rad and I have a private joke about GT2s fom Sebring, we get along just fine.
05-23-2012, 02:00 PM
#60
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Rad
The 2012 schedule was out in I believe August 2011 but that was earlier than usual. Typically it comes out in Sept and it is always subject to change. Brock won't publish a schedule until he can lock down the dates which can be an issue as a lot of tracks don't worry about 2013 schedule until the fall/winter.
Peter
The 2012 schedule was out in I believe August 2011 but that was earlier than usual. Typically it comes out in Sept and it is always subject to change. Brock won't publish a schedule until he can lock down the dates which can be an issue as a lot of tracks don't worry about 2013 schedule until the fall/winter.
Peter