Stupid question re: 997 GT3 suspension upgrades
02-22-2012, 06:44 AM
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Stupid question re: 997 GT3 suspension upgrades
Hi folks,
pardon the inexcusable ignorance.
my 997.1 GT3 is completely stock.
i'm aware there's a ton of suspension bits that you can upgrade on the car, and have a rudimentary understanding of what they do, but what are the "basics" to change? any sorta GT3 Suspension for Dummies guide on here?
i track regularly, but my limits are well below the car's, and am under zero illusions that installing even the best bits will improve my lap times more than if i just spent more time practicing on the stock setup.
my interest is more in possibly improving the durability of the components, and also the consistency of the setup, considering that for everyday use, our roads here are really quite bumpy.
i've had to replace stock control arms a few times, because the rubber bushes are so soft-- as I believe others have mentioned. and i'm also interested in the bits that control rear camber in particular.
so bottom-line, just a quick & dirty "GT3 Suspension 101" primer would be helpful, more for my future reference I suppose.
thanks!
pardon the inexcusable ignorance.
my 997.1 GT3 is completely stock.
i'm aware there's a ton of suspension bits that you can upgrade on the car, and have a rudimentary understanding of what they do, but what are the "basics" to change? any sorta GT3 Suspension for Dummies guide on here?
i track regularly, but my limits are well below the car's, and am under zero illusions that installing even the best bits will improve my lap times more than if i just spent more time practicing on the stock setup.
my interest is more in possibly improving the durability of the components, and also the consistency of the setup, considering that for everyday use, our roads here are really quite bumpy.
i've had to replace stock control arms a few times, because the rubber bushes are so soft-- as I believe others have mentioned. and i'm also interested in the bits that control rear camber in particular.
so bottom-line, just a quick & dirty "GT3 Suspension 101" primer would be helpful, more for my future reference I suppose.
thanks!
02-22-2012, 07:49 AM
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To get started, we switch in suspension parts from the cup cars (toe links and rear track rods) and then lower the car. The car also needs a technical set up (corner balancing, toe, camber adjustments, etc). The car from the factory handles fine on the street but needs tuning for the track. The cup car suspension bits are for locking in the adjustments. With the parts and labor, this costs around $1500. Also, put the cup car spoiler on the front of the car. You can order this from Suncoast Porsche. It makes a big difference. That's all you need as a "learning" driver. The car has plenty of potential to explore by doing these basic changes. Lots of the guys make more changes. It just depends on how much you want to spend.
One of the race shops can do this for you. Where are you located?
One of the race shops can do this for you. Where are you located?
02-22-2012, 10:54 AM
#3
Drifting
simplest is install rear roe links and then a track alignment. that is it. good to go. (good enough for my lowly plain old stock 2010 GT3 non-RS to do a 2:18 at Sebring).
02-22-2012, 12:36 PM
#4
Durability = sealed street components.
Consistency = monoball / metal on metal race components
It is a choice you have to make. But you are talking about the last 3% of performance - or the ability to consistently extract this last 3% as the car becomes more consistent at the limit. But it is a slippery slope as where do you draw the line.
Many start with the toe links and then go from there.
Having done this on other cars previously and on my gt3 as well, my advise is leave it alone or do it all:
- just order all the RSS, GMG, Tarett, other pieces at once and do it all
When you do it all, the rear of the car takes a more consistent set during cornering and it is easier to drive fast - but a good pro would still beat you easily in a stock car - so?
When I did it with the GT3 I did it all - revalve the stock suspension + all the RSS pieces - the car is still like stock but better (the front only has the revalved shocks).
Leave it alone or do it all.
But fix your coolant lines first.
Consistency = monoball / metal on metal race components
It is a choice you have to make. But you are talking about the last 3% of performance - or the ability to consistently extract this last 3% as the car becomes more consistent at the limit. But it is a slippery slope as where do you draw the line.
Many start with the toe links and then go from there.
Having done this on other cars previously and on my gt3 as well, my advise is leave it alone or do it all:
- just order all the RSS, GMG, Tarett, other pieces at once and do it all
When you do it all, the rear of the car takes a more consistent set during cornering and it is easier to drive fast - but a good pro would still beat you easily in a stock car - so?
When I did it with the GT3 I did it all - revalve the stock suspension + all the RSS pieces - the car is still like stock but better (the front only has the revalved shocks).
Leave it alone or do it all.
But fix your coolant lines first.
Last edited by 997gt3north; 02-22-2012 at 11:00 PM.
02-22-2012, 12:57 PM
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Durability = sealed street components.
Consistency = monball / metal on metal race components
It is a choice you have to make. But you are talking about the last 3% of performance - or the ability to consistently extract this last 3% as the car becomes more consistent at the limit. But it is a slippery slope as where do you draw the line.
Many start with the toe links and then go from there.
Having done this on other cars previously and on my gt3 as well, my advise is leave it alone or do it all:
- just order all the RSS, GMG, Tarett, other pieces at once and do it all
When you do it all, the rear of the car takes a more consistent set during cornering and it is easier to drive fast - but a good pro would still beat you easily in a stock car - so?
When I did it with the GT3 I did it all - revalve the stock suspension + all the RSS pieces - the car is still like stock but better (the front only has the revalved shocks).
Leave it alone or do it all.
But fix your coolant lines first.
Consistency = monball / metal on metal race components
It is a choice you have to make. But you are talking about the last 3% of performance - or the ability to consistently extract this last 3% as the car becomes more consistent at the limit. But it is a slippery slope as where do you draw the line.
Many start with the toe links and then go from there.
Having done this on other cars previously and on my gt3 as well, my advise is leave it alone or do it all:
- just order all the RSS, GMG, Tarett, other pieces at once and do it all
When you do it all, the rear of the car takes a more consistent set during cornering and it is easier to drive fast - but a good pro would still beat you easily in a stock car - so?
When I did it with the GT3 I did it all - revalve the stock suspension + all the RSS pieces - the car is still like stock but better (the front only has the revalved shocks).
Leave it alone or do it all.
But fix your coolant lines first.
02-22-2012, 01:06 PM
#6
Durability = sealed street components.
Consistency = monball / metal on metal race components
It is a choice you have to make. But you are talking about the last 3% of performance - or the ability to consistently extract this last 3% as the car becomes more consistent at the limit. But it is a slippery slope as where do you draw the line.
Many start with the toe links and then go from there.
Having done this on other cars previously and on my gt3 as well, my advise is leave it alone or do it all:
- just order all the RSS, GMG, Tarett, other pieces at once and do it all
When you do it all, the rear of the car takes a more consistent set during cornering and it is easier to drive fast - but a good pro would still beat you easily in a stock car - so?
When I did it with the GT3 I did it all - revalve the stock suspension + all the RSS pieces - the car is still like stock but better (the front only has the revalved shocks).
Leave it alone or do it all.
But fix your coolant lines first.
Consistency = monball / metal on metal race components
It is a choice you have to make. But you are talking about the last 3% of performance - or the ability to consistently extract this last 3% as the car becomes more consistent at the limit. But it is a slippery slope as where do you draw the line.
Many start with the toe links and then go from there.
Having done this on other cars previously and on my gt3 as well, my advise is leave it alone or do it all:
- just order all the RSS, GMG, Tarett, other pieces at once and do it all
When you do it all, the rear of the car takes a more consistent set during cornering and it is easier to drive fast - but a good pro would still beat you easily in a stock car - so?
When I did it with the GT3 I did it all - revalve the stock suspension + all the RSS pieces - the car is still like stock but better (the front only has the revalved shocks).
Leave it alone or do it all.
But fix your coolant lines first.
Most ppl are 2-3s off what the car can do. Paying for performance is gratifying, but I'm done with upgrades until I can lap the car as quick as a pro. Yes, thats a big ask. Yes, I'm going to have fun trying
02-22-2012, 04:02 PM
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thanks for the inputs guys, but i think i did a terrible job at explaining exactly what I needed to know.
maybe my question was just too simplistic for people here (my bad)... or you guys simply live and breathe for those last few 10ths (this is a good thing, and why I love RL).
going back, i'm essentially looking for a simple list of the typical components that people CAN change out, starting from the most basic to the most extreme.
i've heard and read about all the terms-- drop links, dog bones, toe links, track rods, etc. but what's the diff between each, etc?
i know, i could do a search and by trawling thru all the different posts, i'd be able to figure it out. but with the incredible detail that RL'ers get into, i'm afraid i'd drown in the minutiae of it all, when all i need is a quick & dirty list of components and what they do
thanks for the help!
maybe my question was just too simplistic for people here (my bad)... or you guys simply live and breathe for those last few 10ths (this is a good thing, and why I love RL).
going back, i'm essentially looking for a simple list of the typical components that people CAN change out, starting from the most basic to the most extreme.
i've heard and read about all the terms-- drop links, dog bones, toe links, track rods, etc. but what's the diff between each, etc?
i know, i could do a search and by trawling thru all the different posts, i'd be able to figure it out. but with the incredible detail that RL'ers get into, i'm afraid i'd drown in the minutiae of it all, when all i need is a quick & dirty list of components and what they do
thanks for the help!
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02-22-2012, 04:04 PM
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a GT3 suspension really only needs 3 things for track.
rear toe links.
adjustable sway bars.
proper alignment with corner balance.
Why? because the stock rear toe links under the stress of track tend to lose alignment.
You can also lower the car and adjust the rear toe links to work with the new ride height.
With adjustable rear toe link you can better hold your alignment which is key.
Adjustable Sway Bars are also important because you can eliminate the "push" characteristic by adjusting the rear sway bar.
A proper alignment can make all the difference in a porsche.
A shop that knows Cup cars is an asset if you can find one.
http://www.tarett.com/items/996-997-...nsion/list.htm
Every other suspension replacement item is luxury: monoball bushings, control arms etc...
(if you have a larger budget, then these items are great to have in terms of allowing further tuning and performance. It removes all the rubber connection points and thus eliminate "sponge" in the chassis).
If you really want to have an ultimate set up, throw the Tarrett catalogue at the car
rear toe links.
adjustable sway bars.
proper alignment with corner balance.
Why? because the stock rear toe links under the stress of track tend to lose alignment.
You can also lower the car and adjust the rear toe links to work with the new ride height.
With adjustable rear toe link you can better hold your alignment which is key.
Adjustable Sway Bars are also important because you can eliminate the "push" characteristic by adjusting the rear sway bar.
A proper alignment can make all the difference in a porsche.
A shop that knows Cup cars is an asset if you can find one.
http://www.tarett.com/items/996-997-...nsion/list.htm
Every other suspension replacement item is luxury: monoball bushings, control arms etc...
(if you have a larger budget, then these items are great to have in terms of allowing further tuning and performance. It removes all the rubber connection points and thus eliminate "sponge" in the chassis).
If you really want to have an ultimate set up, throw the Tarrett catalogue at the car
Last edited by tcsracing1; 02-22-2012 at 04:23 PM.
02-22-2012, 04:18 PM
#9
With suspension there is no magic wand, its more about the sum of all parts.
It wont make your car faster but it will give you more stable feel and better feedback which will make you MORE COMFORTABLE with the car at speed and THAT improves laptimes.
In car racing and driving, CONFIDENCE = SPEED
I would do all at one and save money by only having to do a corner balance and alignment once.
1. Adjustable toe links
2. Upper control arms (dog bones)
3. LCA solid inners
4. adjustable thrust arm bushings
Then lower the car to ROW or lower, and you will have a better geometry at the lower ride height and less roll.
Buts thats just my experience with these cars.
It wont make your car faster but it will give you more stable feel and better feedback which will make you MORE COMFORTABLE with the car at speed and THAT improves laptimes.
In car racing and driving, CONFIDENCE = SPEED
I would do all at one and save money by only having to do a corner balance and alignment once.
1. Adjustable toe links
2. Upper control arms (dog bones)
3. LCA solid inners
4. adjustable thrust arm bushings
Then lower the car to ROW or lower, and you will have a better geometry at the lower ride height and less roll.
Buts thats just my experience with these cars.
02-22-2012, 04:22 PM
#10
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If I were to write a Stage I suspension upgrade for a 997.1 GT3 it would be:
- Rear toe links (multiple brands)
- GMG sway bars, set front and rear in the middle
- Alignment
For road tires, I would replace the MPSC with MPSS. MPSC and unpredictable when cold, the MPSS work dry/rain and it is very predictable.
It is incredible how a very little toe change on the rear axle moves in degrees. The rubber bushings on the stock toe-links cause drastic dynamic toe changes (bad toe), so the toe links from Porsche Motorsports, and multiple other brands reduce this.
The GMG sway bars are magic.
Stage II: Stage I plus
- Swift main springs, 0 rate tenders, aluminum isolators
- Bilstein B16 re-valved for the new spring package
Stage III: Stage II plus
- all monoballs and metal bushings (I like the RSS Tuning LCA)
Stage IV:
- Ohlins, MCS, Penske 2-way adjustable shocks
Stage V:
- Sell 997.1 GT3 get Porsche Carrera GT, best ever Porsche suspension on a mass produced street car.
- Rear toe links (multiple brands)
- GMG sway bars, set front and rear in the middle
- Alignment
For road tires, I would replace the MPSC with MPSS. MPSC and unpredictable when cold, the MPSS work dry/rain and it is very predictable.
It is incredible how a very little toe change on the rear axle moves in degrees. The rubber bushings on the stock toe-links cause drastic dynamic toe changes (bad toe), so the toe links from Porsche Motorsports, and multiple other brands reduce this.
The GMG sway bars are magic.
Stage II: Stage I plus
- Swift main springs, 0 rate tenders, aluminum isolators
- Bilstein B16 re-valved for the new spring package
Stage III: Stage II plus
- all monoballs and metal bushings (I like the RSS Tuning LCA)
Stage IV:
- Ohlins, MCS, Penske 2-way adjustable shocks
Stage V:
- Sell 997.1 GT3 get Porsche Carrera GT, best ever Porsche suspension on a mass produced street car.
02-22-2012, 06:06 PM
#13
Rennlist Member
I would say:
1) get it aligned (it is undoubtedly not)
2) set the stock adjustable bars to suit your driving needs/skills (if the car is a .1, replace the OEM rear bar with the GT2 rear bar, best mod circa $200)
3) rear toe links to obviate the OEM/stock issue with the eccentric bolt
beyond that ...
- maybe tarret drop links
- adjustable (rear) RSS LCA (with solid mount inboard) - BE WARNED THIS ADDS A LOT OF ROAD NOISE
I personally would only recommend RSS, all the others seem to develop wear in the solid joints rapidly, resulting in some noise ... and some dog bone kits thrust a component into the OEM wheel carrier that may not be easily (non-destructively removed)... ask me how I know that!
1) get it aligned (it is undoubtedly not)
2) set the stock adjustable bars to suit your driving needs/skills (if the car is a .1, replace the OEM rear bar with the GT2 rear bar, best mod circa $200)
3) rear toe links to obviate the OEM/stock issue with the eccentric bolt
beyond that ...
- maybe tarret drop links
- adjustable (rear) RSS LCA (with solid mount inboard) - BE WARNED THIS ADDS A LOT OF ROAD NOISE
I personally would only recommend RSS, all the others seem to develop wear in the solid joints rapidly, resulting in some noise ... and some dog bone kits thrust a component into the OEM wheel carrier that may not be easily (non-destructively removed)... ask me how I know that!
Last edited by Larry Cable; 02-22-2012 at 08:02 PM.
02-22-2012, 07:48 PM
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am not surprised there is one, as an eccentric bolt would be a cheap way for manufacturers to offer easily adjustable camber, at the expense of consistency, durability and precision, i'd think.
or did i just answer my own question? hahaha
02-22-2012, 07:59 PM
#15
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what exactly is the issue with the OE eccentric bolt setup?
am not surprised there is one, as an eccentric bolt would be a cheap way for manufacturers to offer easily adjustable camber, at the expense of consistency, durability and precision, i'd think.
or did i just answer my own question? hahaha
am not surprised there is one, as an eccentric bolt would be a cheap way for manufacturers to offer easily adjustable camber, at the expense of consistency, durability and precision, i'd think.
or did i just answer my own question? hahaha