GT2RS Fatality. Opportunity to Reflect on Safety
10-03-2011, 11:38 PM
#107
Rennlist Member
I dunno, once we start traveling down the road of track safety equipment in street cars, I have to wonder about rules and "rules of thumb."
If I look at a 1965-98 911/964/993 and consider its A- and B-pillars alongside the idea of tracking it regularly, a roll bar (at the least) or a roll cage seem like a no-brainer. If I look at a 1998-2011 996/997 and consider its A- and B-pillars as well as what they're made out of, I am not so sure I'd be as quick to add a cage. Looking at pictures of crashed/rolled/etc. 996s and 997s, the structure looks very, very strong. So I have to wonder how far the 996/997's thick A-, B-, C-pillars, which benefit from modern engineering and high-strength steel, go towards the roll-over protection of an older 911 with a cage.
My point being: I wonder sometimes whether the "it's got to have a cage in it" is wisdom based on a bygone era. Ruf's IRC makes me think twice, but Porsche's cage and Röhrl's statement makes me wonder if it's there to meet requirements from...a bygone era. A few years ago, I was autocrossing a Cayenne GTS wearing a helmet to meet PCA rules and had to wonder if I wouldn't be safer without the helmet, given the speeds involved, the added weight of the helmet on my neck, and all the structure and airbags around me.
The smartest thing I've probably heard about safety and track day cars is that anything done has to be a system to avoid adding danger. I have no doubt that an intelligently designed roll cage (with no bars too close to the driver), proper seats braced correctly, harnesses mounted above the shoulder line, anti-sub straps, HNS device, etc. adds to safety on a race track. Problem is, how much, and at what cost if said car will also be driven on the street? The "get a Cup" solution is one I agree with, but it's an unrealistic solution for a lot of people since it also means "get a F250/F350 and a trailer, and find parking for them when you're not at the track."
Not sure I've added anything here, but I'd be curious to hear some of your thoughts on the above.
pete
If I look at a 1965-98 911/964/993 and consider its A- and B-pillars alongside the idea of tracking it regularly, a roll bar (at the least) or a roll cage seem like a no-brainer. If I look at a 1998-2011 996/997 and consider its A- and B-pillars as well as what they're made out of, I am not so sure I'd be as quick to add a cage. Looking at pictures of crashed/rolled/etc. 996s and 997s, the structure looks very, very strong. So I have to wonder how far the 996/997's thick A-, B-, C-pillars, which benefit from modern engineering and high-strength steel, go towards the roll-over protection of an older 911 with a cage.
My point being: I wonder sometimes whether the "it's got to have a cage in it" is wisdom based on a bygone era. Ruf's IRC makes me think twice, but Porsche's cage and Röhrl's statement makes me wonder if it's there to meet requirements from...a bygone era. A few years ago, I was autocrossing a Cayenne GTS wearing a helmet to meet PCA rules and had to wonder if I wouldn't be safer without the helmet, given the speeds involved, the added weight of the helmet on my neck, and all the structure and airbags around me.
The smartest thing I've probably heard about safety and track day cars is that anything done has to be a system to avoid adding danger. I have no doubt that an intelligently designed roll cage (with no bars too close to the driver), proper seats braced correctly, harnesses mounted above the shoulder line, anti-sub straps, HNS device, etc. adds to safety on a race track. Problem is, how much, and at what cost if said car will also be driven on the street? The "get a Cup" solution is one I agree with, but it's an unrealistic solution for a lot of people since it also means "get a F250/F350 and a trailer, and find parking for them when you're not at the track."
Not sure I've added anything here, but I'd be curious to hear some of your thoughts on the above.
pete
The rear rollover bars are placed where the two rear pillars are. These are both thick and close together. The chance of significant deformity of the roof in this area is limited. The weakness in the roof of these cars is between the A pillar and B pillar. There is a large horizontal distance between these two pillars that could wedge down towards the driver and this is also where your head is. In a roll over that were to crush the roof, a rollover bar behind the seats will offer limited to no protection to a driver's head. Unless guys are bolting in there front sections of the OEM cages, how much are you really protecting yourself?
I believe that this is why AP and Rohrl consider the clubsport bar non essential. It is basically where it doesn't need to be unless being used correctly with the front section which most don't seem to be... Thus it is surplus weight at the rear where it isn't needed (not suggesting its weight to be shed).
IMO these cars are designed to be enjoyed on the track and will do that safely with harnesses and head restraints. If you are pushing the envelope, running slicks and hitting pro driver times, a cup car or vehicle with intergrated full roll cage is what you should be in if you're serious about your safety... Otherwise enjoy your track capable cars within their limitations...
ps. Tried to put a diagram together to explain my point... A rear roll bar re-inforces point D in the diagram which is structurally already solid. For a high speed roll over on the track, the critical point is point E... It is the weakest link and will cause the most damage to the driver, bar or no bar, if it hit correctly and it collapsed... Only the front section of the OEM set up will protect you fully yet on the street it can kill you... As others have pointed out, one has to decide how far they want to push it and protect themselves accordingly. For those tracking to the limits, the front section is just as critical if you're going to do it 100% right! (This is just my opinion, I'm no engineer...)
Last edited by 911rox; 10-04-2011 at 07:22 AM.
10-03-2011, 11:42 PM
#108
Rennlist Member
Better car control is probably most underrated safety precaution IMO. Everybody wants to go faster, but they want to do it with stickier tires, full race suspensions, and full data acquisition systems to give them their lap timing and "analyze" what they are doing...long before they can maximize what they already have.
Half the people at all HPDE's need to go back to street tires and learn how to drive an entire lap at a street tire's max slip angle, before they go back to the beloved Hoosiers. Most would be suprised how much speed they left on the table. Then, they should do the exact same process using a semi-slick R-comp, like a Nitto or Toyo or something comparable, and then only when they can handle those R-comps fully, should you make a decision on whether or not you really "need" a racing slick for a DE.
The slow, developmental method is time consuming, and more expensive, but ultimately more rewarding in the long-run, and it just might help you avoid, or better handle a potentially dangerous situation that will most certainly come along if you do this long enough.
Half the people at all HPDE's need to go back to street tires and learn how to drive an entire lap at a street tire's max slip angle, before they go back to the beloved Hoosiers. Most would be suprised how much speed they left on the table. Then, they should do the exact same process using a semi-slick R-comp, like a Nitto or Toyo or something comparable, and then only when they can handle those R-comps fully, should you make a decision on whether or not you really "need" a racing slick for a DE.
The slow, developmental method is time consuming, and more expensive, but ultimately more rewarding in the long-run, and it just might help you avoid, or better handle a potentially dangerous situation that will most certainly come along if you do this long enough.
10-03-2011, 11:47 PM
#109
Nordschleife Master
10-04-2011, 12:08 AM
#110
Race Director
Interesting topic and discussion. So I just got a new car and put in a bolt to the floor and shocks roll bar...or is it a glorified harness bar?....plus I was also told that in a roll over my gar would just punch through the floor mounts anyway. Now that AP and Rohl state they would NOT put in a rear bar...are guys going to now start trend to remove rear bars to save weight and just use something like a BK harness bar?
10-04-2011, 01:13 AM
#111
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although i think there are some compartments in the bulkhead for sunnies and cream and tennis bracelets and stuff...
10-04-2011, 03:02 AM
#112
Better car control is probably most underrated safety precaution IMO. Everybody wants to go faster, but they want to do it with stickier tires, full race suspensions, and full data acquisition systems to give them their lap timing and "analyze" what they are doing...long before they can maximize what they already have.
Half the people at all HPDE's need to go back to street tires and learn how to drive an entire lap at a street tire's max slip angle, before they go back to the beloved Hoosiers. Most would be suprised how much speed they left on the table. Then, they should do the exact same process using a semi-slick R-comp, like a Nitto or Toyo or something comparable, and then only when they can handle those R-comps fully, should you make a decision on whether or not you really "need" a racing slick for a DE.
The slow, developmental method is time consuming, and more expensive, but ultimately more rewarding in the long-run, and it just might help you avoid, or better handle a potentially dangerous situation that will most certainly come along if you do this long enough.
Half the people at all HPDE's need to go back to street tires and learn how to drive an entire lap at a street tire's max slip angle, before they go back to the beloved Hoosiers. Most would be suprised how much speed they left on the table. Then, they should do the exact same process using a semi-slick R-comp, like a Nitto or Toyo or something comparable, and then only when they can handle those R-comps fully, should you make a decision on whether or not you really "need" a racing slick for a DE.
The slow, developmental method is time consuming, and more expensive, but ultimately more rewarding in the long-run, and it just might help you avoid, or better handle a potentially dangerous situation that will most certainly come along if you do this long enough.
BUT, Most everybody who actually races cars tells me I am doing things backwards; get quick in a race car and you will automatically be quick in anything slower. I have to say that thinking definitely applied in go-karts; when I got good in my 6 speed, the rental karts when me and the guys would go for fun were a piece of cake to drift around and set quick times.
10-04-2011, 01:11 PM
#113
Drifting
Thread Starter
Just got off the phone with a woman there at Safety Solutions who advised me that the Hybrid Pro does NOT work with a OE 3-point belts and must be used with a 4 point or greater harness system.
I was advised only the R3 works with OE 3-point belts (as MDrums noted correctly). So I was misinformed when I originally spoke to a person there and I apologize for conveying incorrect info previously.
She then proceeded to try and tell me I had no right to post my experiences with their product and/or recommend their product on any website (Rennlist) and advised me I was suppose to contact them for permission to talk about their product on a website. It was actually not a very pleasant conversation and frankly I was stunned. You would think a business would be happy to have their product recommended by a user but apparantly not.
I would suggest anybody shopping for such a device seek contact with a distributor and not directly with Safety Solutions based upon my experience this morning.
Now you know what I know.
Wow
10-04-2011, 02:12 PM
#114
Addict Rennlist
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Whew.
Just got off the phone with a woman there at Safety Solutions who advised me that the Hybrid Pro does NOT work with a OE 3-point belts and must be used with a 4 point or greater harness system.
I was advised only the R3 works with OE 3-point belts (as MDrums noted correctly). So I was misinformed when I originally spoke to a person there and I apologize for conveying incorrect info previously.
She then proceeded to try and tell me I had no right to post my experiences with their product and/or recommend their product on any website (Rennlist) and advised me I was suppose to contact them for permission to talk about their product on a website. It was actually not a very pleasant conversation and frankly I was stunned. You would think a business would be happy to have their product recommended by a user but apparantly not.
I would suggest anybody shopping for such a device seek contact with a distributor and not directly with Safety Solutions based upon my experience this morning.
Now you know what I know.
Wow
Just got off the phone with a woman there at Safety Solutions who advised me that the Hybrid Pro does NOT work with a OE 3-point belts and must be used with a 4 point or greater harness system.
I was advised only the R3 works with OE 3-point belts (as MDrums noted correctly). So I was misinformed when I originally spoke to a person there and I apologize for conveying incorrect info previously.
She then proceeded to try and tell me I had no right to post my experiences with their product and/or recommend their product on any website (Rennlist) and advised me I was suppose to contact them for permission to talk about their product on a website. It was actually not a very pleasant conversation and frankly I was stunned. You would think a business would be happy to have their product recommended by a user but apparantly not.
I would suggest anybody shopping for such a device seek contact with a distributor and not directly with Safety Solutions based upon my experience this morning.
Now you know what I know.
Wow
Bill
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Your Source For Motorsports Equipment
WWW.OGRACING.COM
800.934.9112
703.430.3303
info@ogracing.com
Sparco's Largest Distributor for 28 Years
PFC Distributor for 27 Years
Pagid, Alpinestars, MOMO, OMP, Hawk, Bell, Aim, G-Force, HJC,
HANS, Arai, Simpson, Brey Krause, Longacre, CoolShirt!
Supplying Track Junkies for 34 Years.
PCA Club Racing - National Sponsor Since 1998
A Veteran Owned Business
Check out our blog!
10-04-2011, 02:30 PM
#115
Rennlist Member
Maybe what they may finally be saying is that none of the H&N are to be used without a 5/6 point belt system. Which is what I've been saying for years. Without that test data showing what happens with a 3 point belt no one is going to be able say that a H&N used with a 3 point belt provides any additional protection. Thinking, guessing or stating IMO means little without the data to back it up. And I understand that this may not be what some want to read, but it's the position that I have taken on H&N.
Bill
Bill
pete
10-04-2011, 02:58 PM
#116
Rennlist Member
Interesting topic and discussion. So I just got a new car and put in a bolt to the floor and shocks roll bar...or is it a glorified harness bar?....plus I was also told that in a roll over my gar would just punch through the floor mounts anyway. Now that AP and Rohl state they would NOT put in a rear bar...are guys going to now start trend to remove rear bars to save weight and just use something like a BK harness bar?
In talking with the guys at my shop, the comment was pretty straight forward - if you're about making the car SAFE, weld in a cage, anything else is a compromise. Neck restraints...that's a different story.
10-04-2011, 03:47 PM
#117
Race Director
Exactly the reason that I went with the BK bar... The bolt in bars are mounted to shear points in the rear and I have not seen a study which states that they provide any protection over the safety features that Porsche has already built in. If you think about it, you're not going to see any studies on bolt in bars on late model Porsches, the costs to test would be prohibitive and most don't have the true capabilities to computationally model the results appropriately.
In talking with the guys at my shop, the comment was pretty straight forward - if you're about making the car SAFE, weld in a cage, anything else is a compromise. Neck restraints...that's a different story.
In talking with the guys at my shop, the comment was pretty straight forward - if you're about making the car SAFE, weld in a cage, anything else is a compromise. Neck restraints...that's a different story.
10-06-2011, 12:05 PM
#118
Burning Brakes
i had mpsc's and then r888's on my 07 gt3 and now my 2012 gtr has all season runflat dunlops. my intention was to wear them out and replace with r compounds. after 4 track days on the dunlops im staying with them. might not offer ultimate grip of r's but so much more fun. now that tire makes some noise, i can drive a little j clarkson on topgear.
might not be fastest way but much more fun and i think safer too. drivers ed is about fun, not setting lap records. that attitude will lead to more safety than all the car mods combined X 10
might not be fastest way but much more fun and i think safer too. drivers ed is about fun, not setting lap records. that attitude will lead to more safety than all the car mods combined X 10
10-06-2011, 04:54 PM
#119
Instructor
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I'm in the middle of fitting a bolt thru the floor cage and gt3 schroths myself in my 2010. Just past the point of no return i.e. just cut the carpet and rear shelf to bits. I want to add something of imense value to this discussion.
It looks very sexy with red a roll cage.
It looks very sexy with red a roll cage.
10-07-2011, 08:01 PM
#120
Rennlist Member
Recently I moved from a HANS to the Issac Device and now to the Safety Solutions Hutchens Hybrid Pro Device (http://www.safetysolutionsracing.com...ybrid-pro.html) which I really like. It cannot be worn with stock 3 point belts and does need a 4/5/6 point harness to work
