savyboy

"Can I wear a "horse collar" foam pad with a HANS Device? Yes.
Foam collars are comfort accessories, not safety equipment. Wear one to stabilize your head and helmet on rough tracks. Testing has shown a horse collar adds mass to the helmet and head loads that must be carried by the neck. This increases the chance of injury ." (http://hansdevice.com/s.nl/sc.5/category.22/.f)

"Like many of its equipment requirements, SCCA recognizes both SFI 38.1 (www.sfifoundation.com) and FIA 8858 (www.fia.com) standards. You can visit these sites to see their approved list of devices. As of Aug. 10, 2011, the following devices are currently approved by SFI or both SFI and FIA:

HANS Performance Products – HANS Device (all series)
Safety Solutions R3 Device
Safety Solutions R3 Rage Device
Safety Solutions Hutchens Hybrid Pro Device
Safety Solutions Hutchens Hybrid Pro Rage Device
Safety Solutions Hutchens Hybrid/Hybrid Rage Device
Safety Solutions Hybrid X Device"

Izzone

You track with your three points......ughh......thats crazy

savyboy

Thanks for the tip on the screws Mike! After only one event with the hybrid device, I can't imagine going back to an Issac or HANS.

Only an R3 can be used with 3-point OE belts.

My hybrid is light, comfortable, and does not shove my head forward like a HANS does when used with Porsche carbon buckets.

mklaskin

Nick,

I wasn't trying to be a know-it-all. The Halo systems in F1 just utilize a different design.

I agree 100% with your comment about driving within your limits.

911rox

I know, i know what you are saying but for the moment i'm usually on the track with 4-8 other cars and a pro supercar driver sitting in the seat beside me, setting the pace, protecting me from myself and keeping me well within the limits of the car ... Different to an open track day, left to your own devices and battling with 20 or 30 other cars... Not suggesting I'm risk free obviously but just that I'm tracking under far more controlled circumstances...

tcsracing1

Based on the photos, nor a full Club Sport Cage or Cup Cage would have done anymore to change the outcome.

Hans with Hans chairs may have helped however.

My next step from 997 Clubsport is going to be a 991 Cup. That and a good dose of driving smart in danger zones.....

This unfortunate driver was only doing something he really enjoyed in a car he loved. We can all relate and be aware when we are out there that this is a hobby with risk.
Be careful out there folks!

roberga

Anything less than a full race car with fuel safe, hans seat and the hole nine yards is a compromise. We ALL find good excuses not to do all the safety. "I only go 8/10ths" "I am not racing" and a 1,000 others. By the looks of the crash site, the driver went beyond their skill level. When I was in mountain rescue the saying was "testostrone poisoning was the number one cause of injury and death on the mountain" , the same for the tract. Still safer than riding a bicycle in traffic. Prayers for the family.

ltc

FWIW, almost every commercially available H&N restraint has been discussed at length in the Racing & DE forum....HANS, ISAAC, R3, White, Hutchens, Leatt, et. al.

HANS devices are very sensitive to belt geometry, so careful attention must be paid to this during the installation. This applies even to the dual shoulder harnesses developed for HANS devices and also the 3"- 2" shoulder harnesses.

Again, before purchasing a H&N, I would strongly suggest searching/posting in the Racing/DE forum and take advantage of the experience and expertise.

cobrien

Sorry to hear this story. My thoughts go out to him and his family.

For me personally I know I came to the realization about a year after I started tracking cars frequently that I spent much more money on making the car go faster and handle better than I did on safety equipment.....which maybe was not the best approach. Particularly since no one was paying me to go faster . At that point I bought a race suit, HANS, etc., and swapped my street car for a race car with fuel cell, fire suppression, etc. All of which I believe were absolutely the right things to do. But even now I'm still guilty sometimes of having the "oh, things will be fine" attitude. If I'm not racing and just testing or scrubbing in some tires on a hot day, sometimes I'll think about not wearing the suit. "I'm just scrubbing in tires, nothing is going to happen". I need to constantly remind myself that when you hit the armco at 110, it doesn't care whether you got there because somebody punted you on the first lap of a race, or because you hit a patch of oil that got dropped by the car in front of you. Tires fail, suspension components fail, brakes fail, crap gets dropped on the track, other people make mistakes, I make mistakes (lots of them), you make mistakes.....all kinds of things can go wrong. Safety equipment needs to be the first investment.

stout

Good thread, and good temperature in it.

Sobering accident, and one that reminds me of how I felt after a certain CGT driver was lost. Leaves me questioning my hobby a bit, which I actually think is a good and important thing.

I've never made a safety related purchase I've regretted, from helmets with a comma in the price tag to a DefNder (which I selected over the Hans due to some hope of lateral-impact protection). However, the HNS I selected won't do a thing for me in street cars with three-point belts, and that's where I spend a lot of time.

Kudos to those of you who smartly made the switch to proper track cars, or approach the safety thing from an all-encompassing approach. Best advice I've heard on the subject came from the owner of BK: Unless you do it all, it's a (bad) compromise. Hard back seats, HNS, and harnesses — for instance — are a recipe for disaster if a car goes upside down. You need a cage, too. But then is that cage safe on the street when you're not wearing a helmet?

I dunno, I think there is big risk in this hobby any way you cut it. Best we can do is face that fact and then make good preparations —*on all fronts —*for an event we hope will never happen.

Be careful out there...

pete

aussie jimmy

chris, i forgot you're running a tourer! :t o_order:
and you do 60 - 90 min stints?
get caged, man! for you, and your crazy passenger.

aussie jimmy

actually, i too, am guilty of running without cage, harness, and hans in my car. i've taken a break from tracking to re-consider options for next car. be safe, guys, it's a very fine line we tread. exciting, but fine.

Quinlan

As someone who wrecked a race car this year, in a single vehicle side impact crash, I agree 100% with those who advocate buying a track car and installing a cage, racing seats (preferably halo), H & N support and proper harnesses. Even something as relatively tame as a normally aspirated 996 is capable of a top speed of over 150mph, and high cornering speeds. Combine that with R compound tires and you have a car capable of speed, braking and cornering equivalent to a pure race car a generation ago. Three point belts and airbags will only do so much...
The cage and harnesses in my car saved me from serious injury, or even death. Yet I know that my speed in that corner (corner 10 at Mosport) in my E "stock" race car, was probably less than the speed that I would have been going through that same turn in my 996 turbo, and would certainly be less than the speed achieved by the GT3's that regularly populate the DE's with stock belts and no cages. PLUS - turn 10 is one of the slower turns at Mosport!
It happens in the blink of an eye. Any one of us could encounter spilled antifreeze, oil, a spinning car ahead of us, a groundhog, etc. at any time and roll the car into a ball WITHOUT making any mistake at all. Combine that with the fact that we are all human, and occasionally DO make mistakes, and you have the potential for disaster, even at the safest track.

E55AMG

So, slightly off topic but a question. I've done a few track days and race schools in the past and think I may start getting into doing some more track days.

spent 2 full days a few weeks ago with a pro driver (and again next week) and he mentioned the importance of safety equipment.

As a beginner, what makes sense? I'm not going to go buy a dedicated track car before I decide this is a hobby I want to pursue. Also don't want to start ripping out my interior (currently have adaptive sport seats) for new seats, HANS, cage, etc.

would one of these devices be the recommendation for a street cart with 3 pt. belts?

OGRacing

Recently I moved from a HANS to the Issac Device and now to the Safety Solutions Hutchens Hybrid Pro Device (http://www.safetysolutionsracing.com...ybrid-pro.html) which I really like. It can be worn with stock 3 point belts and does not need a 5/6 point harness to work and it also offers lateral protection that a HANS does not.

I have asked for at least 2 years for the test results where a 3 point belt was used during testing. None have been provided. And yes, we do sell both companies products. I'm not trying start a fire storm about H&N systems. I'm just trying to make sure that everyone gets good info about safety equipment.

Bill