Porsche refuses LSD repair under warranty
05-26-2011, 01:35 PM
#61
Nordschleife Master
Morning,
One of my customers pinged me about this thread and I figured I would pop in and add a few comments.
First off, I want people to know that the OP contacted before he visited the first of the two dealers. He educated himself around the issue and wanted to go the GT route but he just got caught up in a supply chain snafu. Fed Ex royally dropped the ball and lost a whole crate of my clutches for the better of a week while they were in transit from the factory to my warehouse. If it weren't for his need to have a working LSD this weekend for the auto-x he would have used our parts. So, those of you who are pushing him towards me are preaching to the choir. He and I will sort it out next year after he fries this diff.
I see the topic of dealer's competence has come up. This is really a case by case sort of thing and not some universal. The dealer that John Gordon is talking about clearly didn't know what they were doing. Such is not the case everywhere. Champion has been mention. Champion is a GT dealer and in the last two months alone they have done 3 or 4 complete LSD installs, including one in the GT2 they prepped for One Lap. Not only do they know their way around an LSD, but they can set up backlash and bearing preload and properly install a complete LSD. Let's not forget that places like Brumos and Napleton are dealers. I've had the guys at Fred Baker Porsche and Leith Porsche/Jaguar rebuild plenty of LSDs successfully. Up in Canada, Kanata Ford aka Speed Merchants has done a bunch of them as well. The important thing is to vet the particular dealer you intend to work with, and if they don't give you warm fuzzies go somewhere else.
One of the problems is timing. Some dealers don't want to crack open the LSD at all. In that instance, they ship me the whole unit for me to build it. Then the issue becomes how long does a dead soldier sit in their shop while the diff is being rebuilt. Except for the rare instances, like right now, when I am accidentally out of stock of the parts, my in house turnaround time is 24 hours. But the challenge is generally the shipping. For you East Coast guys next day air is gonna run $100 each way. But ground is 4 days and has your car disabled in the dealer's way for more than a week.
This is why working with someone who is comfortable inside of the LSD itself and who is compentent enough to measure the cups (aka ramps) is key. Next Day air on one of our 10 piece clutch kits is $30-45. If the shop takes the diff out and apart, and measures it, they call me and they've got the parts in hand the next day. Your car stay there overnight and leaves at end of business on day 2. Again, it's about asking the right questions, and in some instances speaking to the actual tech who will work on the car. But the bottomline point I want to make here is that not all dealers are incompetent and many of them can and will work with you on fixing the problem, if you are willing to work with them a little bit.
I do think it's silly that a dealer would deny the warranty based on sway bars. I don't think there's any arguing that. But I think that the sentiments of a handful of people here that the LSD is just going to need to be treated as a consumable is the most productive way to look at it. I do consider is deplorable that Porsche doesn't use a part that has a longer lifespan to it. I've said it elsewhere, but just .2 or .3 mm of extra thickness in the bell washers that would increase the preload and close the gap a little tighter is all that they would really need to do. If I put some 1.5mm or 1.6mm bell washers into your diffs with no other changes, you would get much longer life out of them before the plates stopped locking. The fix really is that simple. The problem is getting all the way into the diff to make that change is how many hours of time? Once you're $600-800 labor into the thing, $150 worth of bell washers versus the $900 cost of a complete motorsport clutch kit becomes a no brainer, and thus why tightening up the diff isn't an approach many people chose, though it's been done by a few.
Then I have one final comment. A couple people said something about the Giken LSD. The fundamental issue with installing an all new LSD versus rebuilding the stock one is that it's an additional $1000 in labor to reset the ring gear backlash and bearing preload. It's a point of diminishing returns for most people, and that's why more people don't replace the stock unit with either our unit or the Giken. And while I don't believe in negative selling, I encourage you guys to keep your eyes open. I am getting calls from customers who are breaking Giken LSDs and the end users who own the cars have said that they are going to start talking about it on the internet. What's breaking is the spider gears, and even though the Giken LSD is now on version two with spider gears just as large as ours, they are still breaking them, and when they do, they lock the diff and turn it into a spool. I've gotten 3 calls on this in as many weeks, and Eddie Bello in particular has had is happen 3 times. Now obviously, Eddie is a unique case with over 1000whp and the world's fastest 911 in the 1/4 and standing mile. But it is happening.
And to be honest, I don't necessarily think that the OEM LSD, at least the 997 GT3 version that's full of cast parts is really that much better. If you look at the LSD Buster thread, last year I predicted those parts would start to wear out and fail on the OEM unit. Just within the last two weeks I've seen two failures. One was a unit send to me for the standard rebuild and when I popped it open the cross pins the spiders ride on were cracked in half. The other is an LSD that's currently sitting apart in Mike Bavaro's shop, Body Motion, in NJ. That car, a GT2 shredded the spider gears, so basically the exact same failure I am hearing about on the Giken LSD. So, it's looking like I may need to consider making a gear kit as an option for the 997 guys, because the cost cutting measures being used in the production of these cars is leading to accelerated wear on items and the need for replacement. It's a shame, but they just don't make them like they used to, there was a time when the race it on Sunday sell it on Monday motto really held true for Porsche and you could take a Carrera RS straight to the track from the showroom floor. It's now more of a "you gotta pay to play" world and for those of you who tracks your cars, I think the LSD is just something that's going to need to be added to the list of items that you put on your service list. Treat it like you do brake pads or clutches, and upgrade it when you wear it out. Just plan ahead and know that the day will come when you're going to need to rebuild or replace your LSD. It's inevitble.
One of my customers pinged me about this thread and I figured I would pop in and add a few comments.
First off, I want people to know that the OP contacted before he visited the first of the two dealers. He educated himself around the issue and wanted to go the GT route but he just got caught up in a supply chain snafu. Fed Ex royally dropped the ball and lost a whole crate of my clutches for the better of a week while they were in transit from the factory to my warehouse. If it weren't for his need to have a working LSD this weekend for the auto-x he would have used our parts. So, those of you who are pushing him towards me are preaching to the choir. He and I will sort it out next year after he fries this diff.
I see the topic of dealer's competence has come up. This is really a case by case sort of thing and not some universal. The dealer that John Gordon is talking about clearly didn't know what they were doing. Such is not the case everywhere. Champion has been mention. Champion is a GT dealer and in the last two months alone they have done 3 or 4 complete LSD installs, including one in the GT2 they prepped for One Lap. Not only do they know their way around an LSD, but they can set up backlash and bearing preload and properly install a complete LSD. Let's not forget that places like Brumos and Napleton are dealers. I've had the guys at Fred Baker Porsche and Leith Porsche/Jaguar rebuild plenty of LSDs successfully. Up in Canada, Kanata Ford aka Speed Merchants has done a bunch of them as well. The important thing is to vet the particular dealer you intend to work with, and if they don't give you warm fuzzies go somewhere else.
One of the problems is timing. Some dealers don't want to crack open the LSD at all. In that instance, they ship me the whole unit for me to build it. Then the issue becomes how long does a dead soldier sit in their shop while the diff is being rebuilt. Except for the rare instances, like right now, when I am accidentally out of stock of the parts, my in house turnaround time is 24 hours. But the challenge is generally the shipping. For you East Coast guys next day air is gonna run $100 each way. But ground is 4 days and has your car disabled in the dealer's way for more than a week.
This is why working with someone who is comfortable inside of the LSD itself and who is compentent enough to measure the cups (aka ramps) is key. Next Day air on one of our 10 piece clutch kits is $30-45. If the shop takes the diff out and apart, and measures it, they call me and they've got the parts in hand the next day. Your car stay there overnight and leaves at end of business on day 2. Again, it's about asking the right questions, and in some instances speaking to the actual tech who will work on the car. But the bottomline point I want to make here is that not all dealers are incompetent and many of them can and will work with you on fixing the problem, if you are willing to work with them a little bit.
I do think it's silly that a dealer would deny the warranty based on sway bars. I don't think there's any arguing that. But I think that the sentiments of a handful of people here that the LSD is just going to need to be treated as a consumable is the most productive way to look at it. I do consider is deplorable that Porsche doesn't use a part that has a longer lifespan to it. I've said it elsewhere, but just .2 or .3 mm of extra thickness in the bell washers that would increase the preload and close the gap a little tighter is all that they would really need to do. If I put some 1.5mm or 1.6mm bell washers into your diffs with no other changes, you would get much longer life out of them before the plates stopped locking. The fix really is that simple. The problem is getting all the way into the diff to make that change is how many hours of time? Once you're $600-800 labor into the thing, $150 worth of bell washers versus the $900 cost of a complete motorsport clutch kit becomes a no brainer, and thus why tightening up the diff isn't an approach many people chose, though it's been done by a few.
Then I have one final comment. A couple people said something about the Giken LSD. The fundamental issue with installing an all new LSD versus rebuilding the stock one is that it's an additional $1000 in labor to reset the ring gear backlash and bearing preload. It's a point of diminishing returns for most people, and that's why more people don't replace the stock unit with either our unit or the Giken. And while I don't believe in negative selling, I encourage you guys to keep your eyes open. I am getting calls from customers who are breaking Giken LSDs and the end users who own the cars have said that they are going to start talking about it on the internet. What's breaking is the spider gears, and even though the Giken LSD is now on version two with spider gears just as large as ours, they are still breaking them, and when they do, they lock the diff and turn it into a spool. I've gotten 3 calls on this in as many weeks, and Eddie Bello in particular has had is happen 3 times. Now obviously, Eddie is a unique case with over 1000whp and the world's fastest 911 in the 1/4 and standing mile. But it is happening.
And to be honest, I don't necessarily think that the OEM LSD, at least the 997 GT3 version that's full of cast parts is really that much better. If you look at the LSD Buster thread, last year I predicted those parts would start to wear out and fail on the OEM unit. Just within the last two weeks I've seen two failures. One was a unit send to me for the standard rebuild and when I popped it open the cross pins the spiders ride on were cracked in half. The other is an LSD that's currently sitting apart in Mike Bavaro's shop, Body Motion, in NJ. That car, a GT2 shredded the spider gears, so basically the exact same failure I am hearing about on the Giken LSD. So, it's looking like I may need to consider making a gear kit as an option for the 997 guys, because the cost cutting measures being used in the production of these cars is leading to accelerated wear on items and the need for replacement. It's a shame, but they just don't make them like they used to, there was a time when the race it on Sunday sell it on Monday motto really held true for Porsche and you could take a Carrera RS straight to the track from the showroom floor. It's now more of a "you gotta pay to play" world and for those of you who tracks your cars, I think the LSD is just something that's going to need to be added to the list of items that you put on your service list. Treat it like you do brake pads or clutches, and upgrade it when you wear it out. Just plan ahead and know that the day will come when you're going to need to rebuild or replace your LSD. It's inevitble.
05-26-2011, 02:42 PM
#63
Nordschleife Master
Yeah, I saw that after I posted and was too lazy to edit. My "It's a shame they don't make them like they used to..." sentence is also a run-on and should be two sentences. Again too lazy to go fix it. rofl.
I've got more important things to do. The clutches just showed up and I've got an LSD for Lieth and one for Champion to get built and back out the door today.
I've got more important things to do. The clutches just showed up and I've got an LSD for Lieth and one for Champion to get built and back out the door today.
05-26-2011, 03:16 PM
#64
Nordschleife Master
Correct that... make that three OEM LSDs with broken internals within the last two weeks. I just got sent a picture of a customer diff that has cracked the side gear where the stub axle flange goes into the LSD body.
05-26-2011, 03:34 PM
#65
A picture, you say ... a gratuitous, mechanical picture ...
05-26-2011, 04:26 PM
#67
Drifting
In the grand scheme of things, I don't think it's really not that big of an issue that it's not covered under warranty. Compared to other cars I've tracked, the GT3 has cost the least in maintenance and mods. All we need to have a reliable track car are an LSD rebuild and coolant fitting modifications. Probably looking at $4k and they should last the life of the car.
Where I do get annoyed however is when the techs/dealerships come up with stupid reasons to deny the warranty. I think a person buying a $100k+ car would appreciate a candid answer without the condescending BS. Just say that Porsche has decided this is a wear item and will not warranty it; don't claim it's because of this and that.
Where I do get annoyed however is when the techs/dealerships come up with stupid reasons to deny the warranty. I think a person buying a $100k+ car would appreciate a candid answer without the condescending BS. Just say that Porsche has decided this is a wear item and will not warranty it; don't claim it's because of this and that.
05-26-2011, 04:43 PM
#68
Nordschleife Master
The LSD should be in my hands in a couple of days. I'll take a picture or two once it's apart. I'll also take pictures of the broken crossposts, which I still have. The irony on the crossposts is their breakage is one of the things the Giken salesman was using in his campaign to say that there were design flaws in our LSD. Our crossposts have a bevelled edge to remove the stress riser, in addion to being one piece billet, instead of cast. I'll post a picture of them at the same time I show you the broken OEM ones, just for comparison purposes. I've never seen a GT crosspost break. But going back as far as the 993 when Porsche first started using GKN for their LSD supplier, cross posts have been breaking. I won't call it chronic, and just like the broken body scare of a few years back, I don't want to sound the alarms. 90% or more of you will never have these problems.
05-26-2011, 04:55 PM
#69
Rennlist Member
In the grand scheme of things, I don't think it's really not that big of an issue that it's not covered under warranty. Compared to other cars I've tracked, the GT3 has cost the least in maintenance and mods. All we need to have a reliable track car are an LSD rebuild and coolant fitting modifications. Probably looking at $4k and they should last the life of the car.
Where I do get annoyed however is when the techs/dealerships come up with stupid reasons to deny the warranty. I think a person buying a $100k+ car would appreciate a candid answer without the condescending BS. Just say that Porsche has decided this is a wear item and will not warranty it; don't claim it's because of this and that.
Where I do get annoyed however is when the techs/dealerships come up with stupid reasons to deny the warranty. I think a person buying a $100k+ car would appreciate a candid answer without the condescending BS. Just say that Porsche has decided this is a wear item and will not warranty it; don't claim it's because of this and that.
05-26-2011, 05:11 PM
#70
Nordschleife Master
I am curious to hear if your results are consistent with the people we've talked to up to this point. A lot of the people installing and driving the Giken are coming from a position of never having had an LSD in the car before, so for them, it's from open to having an LSD. It's night and day and you'll rarely hear a complaint from those owners. But feedback from people with more track experience who have driven cars with LSDs in them for years can feel the difference from one LSD to another. Though part of it will always be personal perference.
Just look at the current LSD discussion from the same OP at the forum in your signature. They are talking about the impact of preload and 4 versus 8 plates and how lots of preload gives great stability under braking but then the car won't rotate at all somewhere like the oak tree. Back that off a bit and the stability is still there, but not as great, but on maintenance throttle the LSD is less locked and allows the car to rotate better. There's a lot of black magic that goes into tuning an LSD. I don't stack most GT2 LSDs the same way I stack most GT3 LSDs, even if the owner is running the same ramps.
As one last example, I'll take it back to the OP. He's an auto-x guy. I've told him not to take out 28/40 ramps, even with the addition of our clutches. For the auto-x guys, corner entry push is the kiss of death. The same stability you track guys seek under braking from high speeds is a liability for a conebasher who is trying to rotate the car early. In fact, I've got a nationally ranked 996 GT3 auto-x customer in CA who had me update his 45/60 ramps to 28/40 because he drove a competitor's 997 and liked the turn in better. And even then it's a combination of stack height and preload in addition to the ramp angles. This is why I ask you guys so many questions when you call or email me about a rebuild.
05-26-2011, 05:55 PM
#71
As one last example, I'll take it back to the OP. He's an auto-x guy. I've told him not to take out 28/40 ramps, even with the addition of our clutches. For the auto-x guys, corner entry push is the kiss of death. The same stability you track guys seek under braking from high speeds is a liability for a conebasher who is trying to rotate the car early. In fact, I've got a nationally ranked 996 GT3 auto-x customer in CA who had me update his 45/60 ramps to 28/40 because he drove a competitor's 997 and liked the turn in better. And even then it's a combination of stack height and preload in addition to the ramp angles. This is why I ask you guys so many questions when you call or email me about a rebuild.
06-01-2011, 02:29 PM
#73
06-01-2011, 03:07 PM
#74
Race Director
Matt, WOW even to my untrained yese that looks horrible...please expalin what I'm looking at here. I take it this is part of a LSD...but what LSD and what part of it?
06-01-2011, 03:23 PM
#75
The diagrams here illustrate each of the casualties.
http://pole-land.com/fmforums/prt/li...tial-6311.html
These diags are not exactly the same as a Porsche pumpkin, but they've got the same generic design.
And here's lots of animations:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBm-S...1&feature=fvwp