Dürheimer: GT1 Block to Be Retired
12-29-2010, 07:05 PM
#31
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Regarding engine homologation for racing...
If the 9A1 NA can't keep up with competitors on HP, could the next GT3 be a 9A1 bi-turbo thus ending the GT2 variant? I believe turbos are also considered more "eco-friendly."
If the 9A1 NA can't keep up with competitors on HP, could the next GT3 be a 9A1 bi-turbo thus ending the GT2 variant? I believe turbos are also considered more "eco-friendly."
12-29-2010, 07:53 PM
#35
Rennlist Member
So much negativity! The GT1 motor is past it; no longer light, powerful, or efficient. The GTS is already within 10% of the RS's hp, with nearly equal torque, without any exotic internals, while being 35% more efficient. I was disappointed by the switch to water-cooling as well, but time marches on. There are plenty of air-cooled cars for those that want to be nostalgic, and there will be plenty of GT3s on the road as well.
Introduction of the M96 was the disgrace; the first time that Porsche street cars were not designed or intended to be raced (or even taken out for an amateur track day, given the oiling problems). If we are getting back to a place where all Porsche sportscars have race-proven motors, it is reason to rejoice. Especially if it means they continue to pass international emissions regs. And if they are less expensive, even better.
There is no doubt in my mind that the 9A1 engine family was designed with racing in mind (unlike the M96). Whether that means displacement and lightweight materials, or additional cylinders to yield another 100+ hp, we shall see. (Personally, I doubt it will be an 8-cylinder; I doubt RUF would spend time and money developing his own V8 if the factory has one in the works.) Regardless, any near-term (1-2 years) changes were likely in play before VW took over.
Think positive, folks...
Introduction of the M96 was the disgrace; the first time that Porsche street cars were not designed or intended to be raced (or even taken out for an amateur track day, given the oiling problems). If we are getting back to a place where all Porsche sportscars have race-proven motors, it is reason to rejoice. Especially if it means they continue to pass international emissions regs. And if they are less expensive, even better.
There is no doubt in my mind that the 9A1 engine family was designed with racing in mind (unlike the M96). Whether that means displacement and lightweight materials, or additional cylinders to yield another 100+ hp, we shall see. (Personally, I doubt it will be an 8-cylinder; I doubt RUF would spend time and money developing his own V8 if the factory has one in the works.) Regardless, any near-term (1-2 years) changes were likely in play before VW took over.
Think positive, folks...
12-29-2010, 08:00 PM
#36
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Thanks for the insight. This applies to Le Mans participants and Rolex Series?
I checked ALMS GT Class competition with Porsche -- Ferrari, BMW, Ford, Chevrolet and Jaguar.
Each of these has a V8? If so, I don't see how Porsche can compete w/o increasing hp through turbos (not allowed) or an 8 cylinder. Though I thought the next M3 was moving to bi-turbo.......hmmmm
Maybe the rules will change with respect to turbos as BMW-Audi-VW, F1 and Indy car are marketing this formula as better on-road and for competition....
though I'd prefer to see a V8 GT3 as a spectator and it would be a blast to own as well.
I checked ALMS GT Class competition with Porsche -- Ferrari, BMW, Ford, Chevrolet and Jaguar.
Each of these has a V8? If so, I don't see how Porsche can compete w/o increasing hp through turbos (not allowed) or an 8 cylinder. Though I thought the next M3 was moving to bi-turbo.......hmmmm
Maybe the rules will change with respect to turbos as BMW-Audi-VW, F1 and Indy car are marketing this formula as better on-road and for competition....
though I'd prefer to see a V8 GT3 as a spectator and it would be a blast to own as well.
12-29-2010, 10:09 PM
#38
Intermediate
According to the article in the recent Excellence, the catastrophic coolant failures are strictly related to the GT1 engine family and the fact that water cooling was "added on" to the air cooled block rather than engineered from the beginning. This has required aluminum hose connectors to be glued into the block, rather than having fittings cast in the block. When the glue fails under high heat conditions, your coolant disappears very quickly. The new engine shouldn't have this problem and if they can fit it with a proper oiling system, could be a successful race engine.
12-30-2010, 12:01 AM
#39
Rennlist Member
If we're going to be "convinced" by reading between the lines of Porsche in its history as a way to predict how it might behave in the coming model cycle, I think the new Carrera/Boxster engine is designed to be cost effective. Nothing else. Criteria of emissions, durability, power output, quality, all come into play and Porsche doesn't disappoint, but compared to the venerable engine that has carried the name to victory for so many decades, Porsche has no shortage of means to solve the emissions versus performance riddle -- they don't need to cut out the heart of the car and hope the customers still find it in their hearts to drive the next one. They threw water in our face and we've learned to live with leaking seals (that never used to leak) and we've learned to deal with no brakes or no diff or cheap suspension parts, but hell, once they send the old horse to the glue factory, what's left? Headlights that turn with the steering wheel?
I always think that there was a car in my blind spot every turn of the wheel on a dark road
12-30-2010, 12:04 AM
#40
GT3 player par excellence
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however, my exige NA car, 4 banger and fiberglass sheel and all
2001 lbs and those cars do not have 5mph bumper.
if pag can come up wiht such a light car, i am all for it.
12-30-2010, 12:05 AM
#41
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Thread Starter
I'm all for seeing flat fours again. Preferably around 10K rpm redline, 250 hp in 2200lb two-seater, rear-engine cars with the wheels at the corners by virtue of some genius invention to take away overhang.
This idea of changing the 911 is flawed in the same way that Porsche thinks they should build a hot rod mid-engine product to "compete" with the 12C and 458 -- this is as if to have learned nothing of the history of success at Porsche; success from continuing to advance the rear-engine vehicle to best all comers.
This idea of changing the 911 is flawed in the same way that Porsche thinks they should build a hot rod mid-engine product to "compete" with the 12C and 458 -- this is as if to have learned nothing of the history of success at Porsche; success from continuing to advance the rear-engine vehicle to best all comers.
As an OT: the Lambo Sesto is a breath of fresh air in the right direction, but at 570bhps in a Gallardo-sized shell there's nothing small about that concept...
On the mid-engined grand tourer, the geniuses at VW must've hired some McKinsey guy just to be told that 911s aren't commercially competive with the 599s and Murcielagos of the world. As a result PAG needed something different... blah blah blah... Is it a commercially sensible call? Probably. But is it necessary? Methinks no.
12-30-2010, 12:16 AM
#42
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Cool concepts like these may work if Porsche finds a way to do what Ferrari has created with the FXX... Make all these radical concept racers and have their most loyal customers finance said ventures. That way they'll somewhat insulate development from short-term commercial interests and actually do something to elevate the brand... instead of milking every last drop of it for legacy value...
12-30-2010, 12:38 AM
#43
Race Director
As a 09 Carrera S owner that tracks his car a lot....and that the Cayman Interseries has seen zero engine issues or failures....the new direct injection engines use less parts and seem to be very durable.
All it will take is for Porsche to win some races with this engine and everyone will be talking about how great an engine it is.
All it will take is for Porsche to win some races with this engine and everyone will be talking about how great an engine it is.
12-30-2010, 01:15 AM
#44
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As a 09 Carrera S owner that tracks his car a lot....and that the Cayman Interseries has seen zero engine issues or failures....the new direct injection engines use less parts and seem to be very durable.
All it will take is for Porsche to win some races with this engine and everyone will be talking about how great an engine it is.
All it will take is for Porsche to win some races with this engine and everyone will be talking about how great an engine it is.
12-30-2010, 01:18 AM
#45
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Certainly one cannot deny the amazing success of the GT1 engine; particularly in light of it's somewhat "bastardized" design (in many ways a air/oil cooled engine that was adapted for liquid cooling). One also has to say that it's greatest weakness is a result of these design compromises, e.g. coolant tubing failures. There is no denying that direct injection is the future of conventional gas engine fuel delivery. I have to believe that PAG designed the 9A1 engine with Factory-backed racing in mind and that this engine, in years to come, will carry the Porsche racing tradition proudly. I will say, however, that it does make our GT1-engined cars more noteworthy than they already were ~ much like the 993 and the value/respect that they garner today.