Who thinks the GT2 RS is a bit ridiculous?
09-10-2010 | 02:41 AM
#76
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This is interesting commentary - I can't say I disagree with you on the 430, the only 430 I was considering spending my money on was the scud, which is a very different experience from the standard 430. The 458 is my first f-car and it is all I was expecting so far (save the recall issue, hoping thats the first and last of that stuff ..). Also, according to more experienced drivers than me, it is their best car in a long time, so perhaps its worth your time to take a test drive to make double sure you don't need one!
I agree it will never be a classic, and perhaps the 2RS will be in 20 years. But really, those points are academic. Is there a single person on this forum that is buying these cars with those kinds of time frames in mind? Lets not kid ourselves, these are toys and if we keep them 3-5 years before rotating that would be very impressive.
Bringing this back to the original thread though, which was not f-car related at all - could you please explain how the 2RS is a "near bargain"? This is what I would like to get educated about. Porsche is charging same or more money than what McLaren will charge, and just look at what all you get with the MP4 ..
I agree it will never be a classic, and perhaps the 2RS will be in 20 years. But really, those points are academic. Is there a single person on this forum that is buying these cars with those kinds of time frames in mind? Lets not kid ourselves, these are toys and if we keep them 3-5 years before rotating that would be very impressive.
Bringing this back to the original thread though, which was not f-car related at all - could you please explain how the 2RS is a "near bargain"? This is what I would like to get educated about. Porsche is charging same or more money than what McLaren will charge, and just look at what all you get with the MP4 ..
In 2002 I bought a GT2 which had an MSRP of around $185K,...and I kept it for exactly 4 years and it cost me $51K round trip for a lot of sweaty palms, fun and learning...that is a real transaction folks! To me it was well worth the round trip
Now fast forward, 9 years later, the replacement car should arguably be $370K (in an 8% world, rule of 72s). Instead, we have a greatly increased HP, more hard core (Widow Maker) with a never before RS designation (unique) and a limited # to boot, all for the "near" bargain price of about $265K, with equipment. Lets say it depreciates by 50% ($135K) over 4 years (thats roughly $67K in 2002 Dollars)..for a much more fun car, and we all know fun isn't free.
By my financial calculator, that's progress, and a "near" bargain.... improved performance for less money in inflation adjusted $$$$ up front, all the while forecasting "extreme" depreciation (50%) for such a rare car yields only slightly higher depreciation costs (in 2002 $$$$). Even the "over produced" CGT hasn't depreciated 50%.
As to who holds these cars for 20 years?, there will be a fair # stuffed into collections; and, of course, anyone wanting to flip the car in the short term is going to get "stroked". But, even, if you argued that it was somewhat overpriced, the limited supply (if maintained) will ensure that the fans, collectors, performance junkies, thrill seekers and accomplished drivers will have this GT2RS in their sights. It may take a little while for all the cars to get into the right hands, but it will happen. As always, time is your asset! So, if you are a little conservative and like to be sure of "where your baby has been" then it might be worth it to pay the small initial premium to get one fresh out of the box! However, I would be surprised if waiting around to get a new GT2RS (equipped to your compromises), at a greatly reduced price is a strategy which will work for many.
As for the CGT it also took a while for the cars to find the right homes. The RS and new Spider cast that car in a whole new light, and now it is starting to rise again, because the good cars are not surfacing frequently. And when they do, they move quickly and quietly. The multiple owner CGT cars are a whole 'nother story.
The only reason, I can rationalize, as to why every Ferrari owner didn't buy a CGT is because most of them may not have been comfortable with sticks. It is more of a challenge to get the blip! It can't have been about the money or performance, since the CGT "tanked" early to become a superlative bargain in Ferrari $$$$$.
On the vaunted Scud look at the recent short term round trip history on a brand new car at MSRP ($75-$90K retail to wholesale, if you are lucky)..but that is price of playing. Have you really checked what has happened to Ferrari values I have seen real transactions and they are not for the faint of heart, especially for those that paid the $50-$100K over MSRP to get in the Club!
Last edited by PogueMoHone; 09-10-2010 at 05:31 AM. Reason: Hopefully clarity
09-10-2010 | 06:36 AM
#77
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I am only worried that this will change and soon be history. They are getting too complicated year by year and not from natural evolution but from "green" pressure and eager shareholders that push the marketing buttons for mass sales.
John
09-10-2010 | 10:18 AM
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The "near" bargain that's easy. (Opportunity costs are excluded since it is assumed that these are consumption (fun) $$$$ and not investment $$$$..otherwise you wouldn't contemplate this car).
In 2002 I bought a GT2 which had an MSRP of around $185K,...and I kept it for exactly 4 years and it cost me $51K round trip for a lot of sweaty palms, fun and learning...that is a real transaction folks! To me it was well worth the round trip
Now fast forward, 9 years later, the replacement car should arguably be $370K (in an 8% world, rule of 72s). Instead, we have a greatly increased HP, more hard core (Widow Maker) with a never before RS designation (unique) and a limited # to boot, all for the "near" bargain price of about $265K, with equipment. Lets say it depreciates by 50% ($135K) over 4 years (thats roughly $67K in 2002 Dollars)..for a much more fun car, and we all know fun isn't free.
By my financial calculator, that's progress, and a "near" bargain.... improved performance for less money in inflation adjusted $$$$ up front, all the while forecasting "extreme" depreciation (50%) for such a rare car yields only slightly higher depreciation costs (in 2002 $$$$). Even the "over produced" CGT hasn't depreciated 50%.
As to who holds these cars for 20 years?, there will be a fair # stuffed into collections; and, of course, anyone wanting to flip the car in the short term is going to get "stroked". But, even, if you argued that it was somewhat overpriced, the limited supply (if maintained) will ensure that the fans, collectors, performance junkies, thrill seekers and accomplished drivers will have this GT2RS in their sights. It may take a little while for all the cars to get into the right hands, but it will happen. As always, time is your asset! So, if you are a little conservative and like to be sure of "where your baby has been" then it might be worth it to pay the small initial premium to get one fresh out of the box! However, I would be surprised if waiting around to get a new GT2RS (equipped to your compromises), at a greatly reduced price is a strategy which will work for many.
As for the CGT it also took a while for the cars to find the right homes. The RS and new Spider cast that car in a whole new light, and now it is starting to rise again, because the good cars are not surfacing frequently. And when they do, they move quickly and quietly. The multiple owner CGT cars are a whole 'nother story.
The only reason, I can rationalize, as to why every Ferrari owner didn't buy a CGT is because most of them may not have been comfortable with sticks. It is more of a challenge to get the blip! It can't have been about the money or performance, since the CGT "tanked" early to become a superlative bargain in Ferrari $$$$$.
On the vaunted Scud look at the recent short term round trip history on a brand new car at MSRP ($75-$90K retail to wholesale, if you are lucky)..but that is price of playing. Have you really checked what has happened to Ferrari values I have seen real transactions and they are not for the faint of heart, especially for those that paid the $50-$100K over MSRP to get in the Club!
In 2002 I bought a GT2 which had an MSRP of around $185K,...and I kept it for exactly 4 years and it cost me $51K round trip for a lot of sweaty palms, fun and learning...that is a real transaction folks! To me it was well worth the round trip
Now fast forward, 9 years later, the replacement car should arguably be $370K (in an 8% world, rule of 72s). Instead, we have a greatly increased HP, more hard core (Widow Maker) with a never before RS designation (unique) and a limited # to boot, all for the "near" bargain price of about $265K, with equipment. Lets say it depreciates by 50% ($135K) over 4 years (thats roughly $67K in 2002 Dollars)..for a much more fun car, and we all know fun isn't free.
By my financial calculator, that's progress, and a "near" bargain.... improved performance for less money in inflation adjusted $$$$ up front, all the while forecasting "extreme" depreciation (50%) for such a rare car yields only slightly higher depreciation costs (in 2002 $$$$). Even the "over produced" CGT hasn't depreciated 50%.
As to who holds these cars for 20 years?, there will be a fair # stuffed into collections; and, of course, anyone wanting to flip the car in the short term is going to get "stroked". But, even, if you argued that it was somewhat overpriced, the limited supply (if maintained) will ensure that the fans, collectors, performance junkies, thrill seekers and accomplished drivers will have this GT2RS in their sights. It may take a little while for all the cars to get into the right hands, but it will happen. As always, time is your asset! So, if you are a little conservative and like to be sure of "where your baby has been" then it might be worth it to pay the small initial premium to get one fresh out of the box! However, I would be surprised if waiting around to get a new GT2RS (equipped to your compromises), at a greatly reduced price is a strategy which will work for many.
As for the CGT it also took a while for the cars to find the right homes. The RS and new Spider cast that car in a whole new light, and now it is starting to rise again, because the good cars are not surfacing frequently. And when they do, they move quickly and quietly. The multiple owner CGT cars are a whole 'nother story.
The only reason, I can rationalize, as to why every Ferrari owner didn't buy a CGT is because most of them may not have been comfortable with sticks. It is more of a challenge to get the blip! It can't have been about the money or performance, since the CGT "tanked" early to become a superlative bargain in Ferrari $$$$$.
On the vaunted Scud look at the recent short term round trip history on a brand new car at MSRP ($75-$90K retail to wholesale, if you are lucky)..but that is price of playing. Have you really checked what has happened to Ferrari values I have seen real transactions and they are not for the faint of heart, especially for those that paid the $50-$100K over MSRP to get in the Club!
However, if I'm reading the tea leaves correctly and these things incur an unusually steep, front loaded depreciation curve, the real "bargain" will be had by waiting a few months. The depreciation for the 2 RS will be analogous to a half-life radioactive decay, much more so than the 996 2 or its successor 2.
Regardless, it will be a hell of a car!
09-10-2010 | 11:08 AM
#79
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The GT2RS engine is not just "an ECU upgrade" , it has a specific turbo and better intercoolers to produce its numbers, your ECU upgrade will not give you much more than 560PS since the stock GT2 engine is pretty wrung out thermally at its 540PS level.
http://www.youtube.com/user/RSTuning.../0/EeVlpF5Fccs
09-10-2010 | 03:10 PM
#81
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Do you know how hard it is to make 600+ hp and make it last lap after lap?!
The GT2 is amazing car and the RS gives you that much more, if I did not have my GT2 I would be all over the new one without any regrets if anything I wish I new about this car before.
This car is all about the insane thrill of going mentle fast, I can't see myself ever going back to a sub 600hp car.
If you can afford it is the question and not look at it for the resale value as an investment, a major hit will come if you sell it under 5 years, being a smart buyer and waiting for second hand could work for some but never doubt this rocket for what it gives in thrills!
My car has 600/600 and I know what's your getting with this GT2RS and it's many of these
The GT2 is amazing car and the RS gives you that much more, if I did not have my GT2 I would be all over the new one without any regrets if anything I wish I new about this car before.
This car is all about the insane thrill of going mentle fast, I can't see myself ever going back to a sub 600hp car.
If you can afford it is the question and not look at it for the resale value as an investment, a major hit will come if you sell it under 5 years, being a smart buyer and waiting for second hand could work for some but never doubt this rocket for what it gives in thrills!
My car has 600/600 and I know what's your getting with this GT2RS and it's many of these
09-10-2010 | 07:56 PM
#82
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Mexico Blue RS at Champion...Sayonara, mon amour!
Re: Larry Cable's "if only that mex blue RS @ Champion wasn't $170k ...". Well, Larry, I think it's too late. Elvis has left the building! See Bruce R's post with photo. "My mate has just taken delivery of this Mexico GT3 RS here in NC. The decals, wheels, wing tips and mirrors in black cost a bunch, in addition to the PtS, but it looks great - duh!".
Personally, I think it was specially ordered by the NC guy all along and never really 'available' to the general public. At least that was the impression I got when that particular Mexico Blue RS was discussed first time around at the forum. But Champion put it on their website probably just to show off and get some internet web traffic going. z356
https://rennlist.com/forums/997-gt2-...ion-begin.html
Personally, I think it was specially ordered by the NC guy all along and never really 'available' to the general public. At least that was the impression I got when that particular Mexico Blue RS was discussed first time around at the forum. But Champion put it on their website probably just to show off and get some internet web traffic going. z356
https://rennlist.com/forums/997-gt2-...ion-begin.html
09-10-2010 | 08:06 PM
#83
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Re: Larry Cable's "if only that mex blue RS @ Champion wasn't $170k ...". Well, Larry, I think it's too late. Elvis has left the building! See Bruce R's post with photo. "My mate has just taken delivery of this Mexico GT3 RS here in NC. The decals, wheels, wing tips and mirrors in black cost a bunch, in addition to the PtS, but it looks great - duh!".
Personally, I think it was specially ordered by the NC guy all along and never really 'available' to the general public. At least that was the impression I got when that particular Mexico Blue RS was discussed first time around at the forum. But Champion put it on their website probably just to show off and get some internet web traffic going. z356
https://rennlist.com/forums/997-gt2-...ion-begin.html
Personally, I think it was specially ordered by the NC guy all along and never really 'available' to the general public. At least that was the impression I got when that particular Mexico Blue RS was discussed first time around at the forum. But Champion put it on their website probably just to show off and get some internet web traffic going. z356
https://rennlist.com/forums/997-gt2-...ion-begin.html
09-10-2010 | 09:40 PM
#84
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Colm exactly and this difference made 911 stand out from the other supercars all these years. You could actually drive them anywhere everyday and fix them easy and cheap.
I am only worried that this will change and soon be history. They are getting too complicated year by year and not from natural evolution but from "green" pressure and eager shareholders that push the marketing buttons for mass sales.
John
I am only worried that this will change and soon be history. They are getting too complicated year by year and not from natural evolution but from "green" pressure and eager shareholders that push the marketing buttons for mass sales.
John
09-11-2010 | 03:28 PM
#86
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09-11-2010 | 11:24 PM
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Where'd this comment come from ....... I've got three GT3RS (2 green 1 orange) and a Riv. blue '11 on the boat.
You can never have toooooooooo many RS
09-13-2010 | 03:54 AM
#88
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I understand it's an affliction that some have around here...
Personally, I love the current GT3RS...but I'd have to have a collection in the hundreds of cars before I start duplicating. Too much good stuff out there...
Personally, I love the current GT3RS...but I'd have to have a collection in the hundreds of cars before I start duplicating. Too much good stuff out there...
09-13-2010 | 07:24 AM
#89
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Oh. Yes. Please.
