Aftermarket Ceramic Rotors (PCCB Replacement)
08-06-2010, 02:15 PM
#46
Has anyone done up a "real" spreadsheet of operating costs on brakes, pads and tires, etc.?
I just scribbled this one together. It makes all kinds of loose assumptions of course, but it tries to consider the real cost of brakes given rotor lifespan. Obviously in favor of any product with claims of longer life. Given the approximate numbers, it suggests some interesting costs.
For example, if "brakes" cost $5 per lap, let's say that's about the same as fuel per lap. Very round numbers. Which cost will double or triple in the next two years? : )
I think this draws the inescapably logical conclusion that the only reasonable course of action is to reduce fuel costs per lap. It becomes a matter of simple budget and fiscal responsibility to look for the most fuel efficient track car. Therefore, it is simply logical to buy the 918.
I just scribbled this one together. It makes all kinds of loose assumptions of course, but it tries to consider the real cost of brakes given rotor lifespan. Obviously in favor of any product with claims of longer life. Given the approximate numbers, it suggests some interesting costs.
For example, if "brakes" cost $5 per lap, let's say that's about the same as fuel per lap. Very round numbers. Which cost will double or triple in the next two years? : )
I think this draws the inescapably logical conclusion that the only reasonable course of action is to reduce fuel costs per lap. It becomes a matter of simple budget and fiscal responsibility to look for the most fuel efficient track car. Therefore, it is simply logical to buy the 918.
08-06-2010, 02:31 PM
#47
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Normal people:
Street and light track use keep oem whatever you have, spend money on much more urgent matters.
Track only forget PCCB and buy a race proven steel system. The cheapest you can find.
Mad money people or perfectionists and big spenders:
Buy the most outrageous kit available regardless of the use and then post here for us to see
John
08-06-2010, 02:32 PM
#48
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Has anyone done up a "real" spreadsheet of operating costs on brakes, pads and tires, etc.?
I just scribbled this one together. It makes all kinds of loose assumptions of course, but it tries to consider the real cost of brakes given rotor lifespan. Obviously in favor of any product with claims of longer life. Given the approximate numbers, it suggests some interesting costs.
For example, if "brakes" cost $5 per lap, let's say that's about the same as fuel per lap. Very round numbers. Which cost will double or triple in the next two years? : )
I think this draws the inescapably logical conclusion that the only reasonable course of action is to reduce fuel costs per lap. It becomes a matter of simple budget and fiscal responsibility to look for the most fuel efficient track car. Therefore, it is simply logical to buy the 918.
I just scribbled this one together. It makes all kinds of loose assumptions of course, but it tries to consider the real cost of brakes given rotor lifespan. Obviously in favor of any product with claims of longer life. Given the approximate numbers, it suggests some interesting costs.
For example, if "brakes" cost $5 per lap, let's say that's about the same as fuel per lap. Very round numbers. Which cost will double or triple in the next two years? : )
I think this draws the inescapably logical conclusion that the only reasonable course of action is to reduce fuel costs per lap. It becomes a matter of simple budget and fiscal responsibility to look for the most fuel efficient track car. Therefore, it is simply logical to buy the 918.
John
08-06-2010, 02:42 PM
#49
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Love the spreadsheet !!
I use the DE session duration X # of sessions. On a typical East Coast and West Coast track day (PCA, Speed Ventures, BMWCCA, etc), I get 4 sessions of 20 minutes average, or 80 minutes of track time.
With DE use, that could be 50 track days at Laguna Seca for PCCB. At 5 track days per year, stock PCCB rotors should be good for 10 years. However, once we start dealing with long track time (some clubs run up to 4 hours of track time or 240 minutes), the same stock PCCB would barely last 10 days, and if we are running that many events per year or more, PCCB can be very expensive.
I like the MovIT rotors re-using the stock Porsche hats and fasteners, but I like the Brembo GTR and Stoptech STR much more (more efficient, consistent, and cheaper).
Here is some more information on MovIt ceramic brakes from RBM (Bob) at f-chat from January 2010:
"I am collecting wear data on Movit CER (carbon ceramic) brakes for the Manufacturer (Movit). Here's an excerpt I thought may be of interest on this thread:
"I finally had to change the first set of front Sport pads on the CER rotors. Here’s the data:
New pad thickness = 10mm
Use = 19 track days; 2644.8 miles
(Texas World Speedway, 2.9 miles, average = 4x 24-minute track sessions per day, 12 laps per session, 139.2 miles per day)
Thickness remaining on worn Sport pads:
Rear
Right Rear Inner = 7-8mm*
Right Rear Outer = 8-8.5mm*
Left Rear Inner = 8mm
Left Rear Outer = 8-9mm*
Front
Right Front Inner = 5-6mm*
Right Front Outer = 5-6mm*
Left Front Inner = 5-6mm*
Left Front Outer = 6-7mm*
*pads were tapered at leading edge
No measurable wear on rotors.
I replaced the front pads. I anticipate another 2500 miles of track use from the rear pads. Front Sport pad wear has been significantly better than PCCB pad, which averaged 6 track days per set "
CER rotors are 350mm x 34mm front; 350mm x 28mm rear. Car is 3500 pounds (Porsche 996 Turbo, full wet w/driver). CER rotors are made from same carbon-ceramic material as Ferrari and Porsche PCCB rotors; Panox from Carbon SGL in Germany. But the construction method is different; hence the better wear characteristics."
I use the DE session duration X # of sessions. On a typical East Coast and West Coast track day (PCA, Speed Ventures, BMWCCA, etc), I get 4 sessions of 20 minutes average, or 80 minutes of track time.
With DE use, that could be 50 track days at Laguna Seca for PCCB. At 5 track days per year, stock PCCB rotors should be good for 10 years. However, once we start dealing with long track time (some clubs run up to 4 hours of track time or 240 minutes), the same stock PCCB would barely last 10 days, and if we are running that many events per year or more, PCCB can be very expensive.
I like the MovIT rotors re-using the stock Porsche hats and fasteners, but I like the Brembo GTR and Stoptech STR much more (more efficient, consistent, and cheaper).
Here is some more information on MovIt ceramic brakes from RBM (Bob) at f-chat from January 2010:
"I am collecting wear data on Movit CER (carbon ceramic) brakes for the Manufacturer (Movit). Here's an excerpt I thought may be of interest on this thread:
"I finally had to change the first set of front Sport pads on the CER rotors. Here’s the data:
New pad thickness = 10mm
Use = 19 track days; 2644.8 miles
(Texas World Speedway, 2.9 miles, average = 4x 24-minute track sessions per day, 12 laps per session, 139.2 miles per day)
Thickness remaining on worn Sport pads:
Rear
Right Rear Inner = 7-8mm*
Right Rear Outer = 8-8.5mm*
Left Rear Inner = 8mm
Left Rear Outer = 8-9mm*
Front
Right Front Inner = 5-6mm*
Right Front Outer = 5-6mm*
Left Front Inner = 5-6mm*
Left Front Outer = 6-7mm*
*pads were tapered at leading edge
No measurable wear on rotors.
I replaced the front pads. I anticipate another 2500 miles of track use from the rear pads. Front Sport pad wear has been significantly better than PCCB pad, which averaged 6 track days per set "
CER rotors are 350mm x 34mm front; 350mm x 28mm rear. Car is 3500 pounds (Porsche 996 Turbo, full wet w/driver). CER rotors are made from same carbon-ceramic material as Ferrari and Porsche PCCB rotors; Panox from Carbon SGL in Germany. But the construction method is different; hence the better wear characteristics."
08-06-2010, 02:46 PM
#50
Love the spreadsheet !!
I use the DE session duration X # of sessions. On a typical East Coast and West Coast track day (PCA, Speed Ventures, BMWCCA, etc), I get 4 sessions of 20 minutes average, or 80 minutes of track time.
With DE use, that could be 50 track days at Laguna Seca for PCCB. At 5 track days per year, stock PCCB rotors should be good for 10 years. However, once we start dealing with long track time (some clubs run up to 4 hours of track time or 240 minutes), the same stock PCCB would barely last 10 days, and if we are running that many events per year or more, PCCB can be very expensive.
I like the MovIT rotors re-using the stock Porsche hats and fasteners, but I like the Brembo GTR and Stoptech STR much more (more efficient, consistent, and cheaper).
Here is some more information on MovIt ceramic brakes from RBM (Bob) at f-chat from January 2010:
"I am collecting wear data on Movit CER (carbon ceramic) brakes for the Manufacturer (Movit). Here's an excerpt I thought may be of interest on this thread:
"I finally had to change the first set of front Sport pads on the CER rotors. Here’s the data:
New pad thickness = 10mm
Use = 19 track days; 2644.8 miles
(Texas World Speedway, 2.9 miles, average = 4x 24-minute track sessions per day, 12 laps per session, 139.2 miles per day)
Thickness remaining on worn Sport pads:
Rear
Right Rear Inner = 7-8mm*
Right Rear Outer = 8-8.5mm*
Left Rear Inner = 8mm
Left Rear Outer = 8-9mm*
Front
Right Front Inner = 5-6mm*
Right Front Outer = 5-6mm*
Left Front Inner = 5-6mm*
Left Front Outer = 6-7mm*
*pads were tapered at leading edge
No measurable wear on rotors.
I replaced the front pads. I anticipate another 2500 miles of track use from the rear pads. Front Sport pad wear has been significantly better than PCCB pad, which averaged 6 track days per set "
CER rotors are 350mm x 34mm front; 350mm x 28mm rear. Car is 3500 pounds (Porsche 996 Turbo, full wet w/driver). CER rotors are made from same carbon-ceramic material as Ferrari and Porsche PCCB rotors; Panox from Carbon SGL in Germany. But the construction method is different; hence the better wear characteristics."
I use the DE session duration X # of sessions. On a typical East Coast and West Coast track day (PCA, Speed Ventures, BMWCCA, etc), I get 4 sessions of 20 minutes average, or 80 minutes of track time.
With DE use, that could be 50 track days at Laguna Seca for PCCB. At 5 track days per year, stock PCCB rotors should be good for 10 years. However, once we start dealing with long track time (some clubs run up to 4 hours of track time or 240 minutes), the same stock PCCB would barely last 10 days, and if we are running that many events per year or more, PCCB can be very expensive.
I like the MovIT rotors re-using the stock Porsche hats and fasteners, but I like the Brembo GTR and Stoptech STR much more (more efficient, consistent, and cheaper).
Here is some more information on MovIt ceramic brakes from RBM (Bob) at f-chat from January 2010:
"I am collecting wear data on Movit CER (carbon ceramic) brakes for the Manufacturer (Movit). Here's an excerpt I thought may be of interest on this thread:
"I finally had to change the first set of front Sport pads on the CER rotors. Here’s the data:
New pad thickness = 10mm
Use = 19 track days; 2644.8 miles
(Texas World Speedway, 2.9 miles, average = 4x 24-minute track sessions per day, 12 laps per session, 139.2 miles per day)
Thickness remaining on worn Sport pads:
Rear
Right Rear Inner = 7-8mm*
Right Rear Outer = 8-8.5mm*
Left Rear Inner = 8mm
Left Rear Outer = 8-9mm*
Front
Right Front Inner = 5-6mm*
Right Front Outer = 5-6mm*
Left Front Inner = 5-6mm*
Left Front Outer = 6-7mm*
*pads were tapered at leading edge
No measurable wear on rotors.
I replaced the front pads. I anticipate another 2500 miles of track use from the rear pads. Front Sport pad wear has been significantly better than PCCB pad, which averaged 6 track days per set "
CER rotors are 350mm x 34mm front; 350mm x 28mm rear. Car is 3500 pounds (Porsche 996 Turbo, full wet w/driver). CER rotors are made from same carbon-ceramic material as Ferrari and Porsche PCCB rotors; Panox from Carbon SGL in Germany. But the construction method is different; hence the better wear characteristics."
08-06-2010, 03:40 PM
#51
Rennlist Member
I had a chance to talk to Bob a time or two as he has been hammering the Movit brakes at TWS. Last time we spoke (a year ago), we discussed the life difference between the Porsche and Movit CCB systems. If you look at your Porsche rotors from the side, you can see that there is a (literally) paper thin braking surface laminated on the structural substrate. That is why they are delicate, and can be ruined easily - if you wear or knock a hole through the braking layer, the rotor starts to degrade rapidly, because the thick structural layer does not work well as a friction surface.
The Movit rotor is a monolithic, single material. If you wear it down, the material below the surface is the same as the surface. This should provide ridiculously long life (approaching the life of the car, even with track use). It was thought that you could even fix an uneven face (if you wore through the pad or caught a rock) by grinding it smooth again.
Before you rush to spend $25k, please keep in mind that this is my recollection of a trackside conversation. You might want to verify the facts.....
The Movit rotor is a monolithic, single material. If you wear it down, the material below the surface is the same as the surface. This should provide ridiculously long life (approaching the life of the car, even with track use). It was thought that you could even fix an uneven face (if you wore through the pad or caught a rock) by grinding it smooth again.
Before you rush to spend $25k, please keep in mind that this is my recollection of a trackside conversation. You might want to verify the facts.....
08-08-2010, 02:48 PM
#53
08-09-2010, 04:18 PM
#54
I have no idea what their rennlist discount is as I don't work for them....I don't think they are very well situated in US yet. Quite popular in Europe though and their bits are quite impressive as I have seen them first hand. An extremely reliable and trusted source said he preferred the movit to the stock ceramic Porsche bits.
08-09-2010, 04:52 PM
#55
I have no idea what their rennlist discount is as I don't work for them....I don't think they are very well situated in US yet. Quite popular in Europe though and their bits are quite impressive as I have seen them first hand. An extremely reliable and trusted source said he preferred the movit to the stock ceramic Porsche bits.
08-10-2010, 02:07 AM
#56
08-10-2010, 06:03 PM
#57
Drifting
Thread Starter
AFAIK, Movit ceramic rotors are manufactured by ST Systems in the UK.
That is who MovIt liscensed the rotor manfacturing technology from is my understanding.
This is likely the link you intended: http://www.systemst.com/
Here is a neat little .swf movie from the site: http://www.systemst.com/flash/Carbon...vs-Ceramic.swf
System ST appears to be a competitor company to MovIt and also uses the CSC rotors from Surface Transforms. SystemST also links on it's site to MovIt which is a bit perplexing.
Cheers-
08-10-2010, 06:40 PM
#58
Did you mean by chance Surface Transforms? http://www.surface-transforms.com/
That is who MovIt liscensed the rotor manfacturing technology from is my understanding.
This is likely the link you intended: http://www.systemst.com/
Here is a neat little .swf movie from the site: http://www.systemst.com/flash/Carbon...vs-Ceramic.swf
System ST appears to be a competitor company to MovIt and also uses the CSC rotors from Surface Transforms. SystemST also links on it's site to MovIt which is a bit perplexing.
Cheers-
That is who MovIt liscensed the rotor manfacturing technology from is my understanding.
This is likely the link you intended: http://www.systemst.com/
Here is a neat little .swf movie from the site: http://www.systemst.com/flash/Carbon...vs-Ceramic.swf
System ST appears to be a competitor company to MovIt and also uses the CSC rotors from Surface Transforms. SystemST also links on it's site to MovIt which is a bit perplexing.
Cheers-
ps. Savvy -- You are hereby appointed to the honorable position of Hey Wait for Me Racing "Chief Executive Researcher"
08-10-2010, 09:13 PM
#59
Drifting
Thread Starter
I love to explore the possibilities!
Wow! I accept your appointment with enthusiasm. This is my very first appointment ever and it is very exciting
08-11-2010, 03:58 AM
#60
Did you mean by chance Surface Transforms? http://www.surface-transforms.com/
That is who MovIt liscensed the rotor manfacturing technology from is my understanding.
This is likely the link you intended: http://www.systemst.com/
That is who MovIt liscensed the rotor manfacturing technology from is my understanding.
This is likely the link you intended: http://www.systemst.com/