For the curious, critical and analytical.....
10-01-2009, 12:07 AM
#1
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For the curious, critical and analytical.....
Gen II RS versus Gen I
Conclusion.
If you can get the Gen II, take it. However.....
I would not sell (dump?) the Gen I RS in order to have the new Gen II RS, especially if I had to sell the Gen I at any kind of "market" discount to accommodate the new one.
Why?
The physical differences are not significant enough, and the Gen I can probably be upgraded to "close" some of the 'cosmetic" gap.
Remember, Porsche is a Company which makes improvements in incremental steps versus quantum leaps, except in the case of new model introductions.
Disclosure
As a current Gen I owner I spent 2 days in Frankfurt, examining as closely as I could, the Gen II car and in reality it is not that different from the Gen I in appearance and presence.
Yes, the Gen II looks great, particularly if you don't own the Gen I
The driving experience is unknown, since no one has driven it. While I expect it to be a "significant" improvement, one must consider that most current owners don't even approach the limitations of the Gen I variant so there is no reason to take a "bath" on a upgrade. In fact, in my book it would be stupid, even if you had more money than God.
Opinion
So is the Gen II a disappointment? Not at all, it is fantastic, but it is clearly incremental.
If you don't have a Gen I, I would play all the cards with my local Dealer to get a Gen II at MSRP; but any premium over MSRP just enhances the Gen I car; hence the rationale for keeping the Gen I cars.
When the final production numbers are known for the Gen II, hindsight will provide the usual insights..until the the next RS comes along. Look at the older Porsche cars 68-73 and even though there are "significant" differences the values are pretty clustered. The market differences between the RS models will even out, especially since it now appears as part of the current regular lineup.
Allocations
I have not seen anything credible concerning production #s, but I am surprised at the # of people who claim to be getting one, compared to the # of Dealers who claim to be selling them over MSRP (something doesn't square). This is just further evidence that perception is greater than reality, at some level (Customer or Dealer?). Somebody is in for a reality check!
Hopefully this has set you thinking... I know I am.
Conclusion.
If you can get the Gen II, take it. However.....
I would not sell (dump?) the Gen I RS in order to have the new Gen II RS, especially if I had to sell the Gen I at any kind of "market" discount to accommodate the new one.
Why?
The physical differences are not significant enough, and the Gen I can probably be upgraded to "close" some of the 'cosmetic" gap.
Remember, Porsche is a Company which makes improvements in incremental steps versus quantum leaps, except in the case of new model introductions.
Disclosure
As a current Gen I owner I spent 2 days in Frankfurt, examining as closely as I could, the Gen II car and in reality it is not that different from the Gen I in appearance and presence.
Yes, the Gen II looks great, particularly if you don't own the Gen I
The driving experience is unknown, since no one has driven it. While I expect it to be a "significant" improvement, one must consider that most current owners don't even approach the limitations of the Gen I variant so there is no reason to take a "bath" on a upgrade. In fact, in my book it would be stupid, even if you had more money than God.
Opinion
So is the Gen II a disappointment? Not at all, it is fantastic, but it is clearly incremental.
If you don't have a Gen I, I would play all the cards with my local Dealer to get a Gen II at MSRP; but any premium over MSRP just enhances the Gen I car; hence the rationale for keeping the Gen I cars.
When the final production numbers are known for the Gen II, hindsight will provide the usual insights..until the the next RS comes along. Look at the older Porsche cars 68-73 and even though there are "significant" differences the values are pretty clustered. The market differences between the RS models will even out, especially since it now appears as part of the current regular lineup.
Allocations
I have not seen anything credible concerning production #s, but I am surprised at the # of people who claim to be getting one, compared to the # of Dealers who claim to be selling them over MSRP (something doesn't square). This is just further evidence that perception is greater than reality, at some level (Customer or Dealer?). Somebody is in for a reality check!
Hopefully this has set you thinking... I know I am.
10-01-2009, 12:12 AM
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"So is the Gen II a disappointment? Not at all, it is fantastic, but it is clearly incremental."
you nailed it spot on!
"If you don't have a Gen I, I would play all the cards with my local Dealer to get a Gen II at MSRP; but any premium over MSRP just enhances the Gen I car; hence the rationale for keeping the Gen I cars."
you are totally right!
you nailed it spot on!
"If you don't have a Gen I, I would play all the cards with my local Dealer to get a Gen II at MSRP; but any premium over MSRP just enhances the Gen I car; hence the rationale for keeping the Gen I cars."
you are totally right!
10-01-2009, 12:41 AM
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How stupid would you feel if you sold your Gen I at a "discount" thinking you were going to get a Gen II at MSRP; and then find out that the Dealer, due to extremely limited allocations, wanted $50K over MSRP for your Gen II car.
Is there A $75K Delta between the two?
Now, you are starting to get my point (not absolute answer).... about thinking about this.
10-01-2009, 12:45 AM
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10-01-2009, 01:57 AM
#8
Burning Brakes
For those of us that don't have a Gen I GT3 (I'm not even talking about the RS here), would you recommend we pull the trigger on a used Gen I instead of buying a Gen II at MSRP?
10-01-2009, 02:11 AM
#9
Nordschleife Master
I agree with PogueMohone's analysis. The 997.1 RS is an outstanding car and it will not be diminished by the 997.2RS. Just 2 outstanding siblings.
Nothing fundamental changed between the 2 models. It's not the seachange brought by the 997.2 DFI Carrera over the 997.1 Carrera.
Nothing fundamental changed between the 2 models. It's not the seachange brought by the 997.2 DFI Carrera over the 997.1 Carrera.
10-01-2009, 02:18 AM
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When the 997 GT3 came to the market (with sunroof and everything), it was a generally improved car over the 996 GT3 (incremental). However, the look of the 997 GT3 was so much better than the look of the 996 GT3, and ultimately that awesome look sold plenty of cars.
Then shortly after, a 997 GT3 RS shows up with a wide body, and for the first time a real RS comes to America, not a dumb down version, but the real deal sans seats and optional CS package (easy add-ons). This helped the GT3 RS value a lot, to the point that it has the highest resale value of any recent Porsche (the Carrera GT keeps catching up though). The car sold at astronomical prices higher than my perception of value for such car.
The extra 35 Hp in the new 997.2 GT3 RS and short gear tranny (which is just a short and cheap R&P + a taller 6th that is not needed) is hard to justify when looking at the market value of the 997.1 GT3 RS and the expected mark-up of the 997.2 GT3 RS.
I have configured the RS as I would order it (PCCB+full leather+Nav+better audio), and it gets around $150k. There is not a single color I would choose from the current chart, so most likely I would get a white car, remove the decals, repaint the car in Riviera Blue or Pure Orange and place 997.1 GT3 RS decals on a color of my choice after the purchase.
However, if the mark-up over MSRP gets outside my perception of acceptable value, I will not have any doubt to shop at the sister company selling those mid engine Italian V10 with proven AWD, a nice warranty, a sleek body, a manual transmission, and cheaper given the 0 mark-up over MSRP. Indeed, I have those doubt right now, even comparing these two cars at the MSRP, and I get to choose better colors with the AWD thingy.
Pogue, you're absolutely right !!
Then shortly after, a 997 GT3 RS shows up with a wide body, and for the first time a real RS comes to America, not a dumb down version, but the real deal sans seats and optional CS package (easy add-ons). This helped the GT3 RS value a lot, to the point that it has the highest resale value of any recent Porsche (the Carrera GT keeps catching up though). The car sold at astronomical prices higher than my perception of value for such car.
The extra 35 Hp in the new 997.2 GT3 RS and short gear tranny (which is just a short and cheap R&P + a taller 6th that is not needed) is hard to justify when looking at the market value of the 997.1 GT3 RS and the expected mark-up of the 997.2 GT3 RS.
I have configured the RS as I would order it (PCCB+full leather+Nav+better audio), and it gets around $150k. There is not a single color I would choose from the current chart, so most likely I would get a white car, remove the decals, repaint the car in Riviera Blue or Pure Orange and place 997.1 GT3 RS decals on a color of my choice after the purchase.
However, if the mark-up over MSRP gets outside my perception of acceptable value, I will not have any doubt to shop at the sister company selling those mid engine Italian V10 with proven AWD, a nice warranty, a sleek body, a manual transmission, and cheaper given the 0 mark-up over MSRP. Indeed, I have those doubt right now, even comparing these two cars at the MSRP, and I get to choose better colors with the AWD thingy.
Pogue, you're absolutely right !!
10-01-2009, 02:26 AM
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I had the 997.1 GT3 and loved it, but I haven't paid a lot of attention to the 997.2 version so I am not comfortable opining but I didn't want to ignore the question. There are others with direct experience of each version of the GT3 who can expound on the nuances of each.
People carped about the Gen I GT3 having a sunroof, the Gen II doesn't have a sunroof, so the purists are happier. But then (for the purist?) there is the RS...
All of the above applies new to new.
When you introduce used to the equation I don't think there is a $50 K difference in value between the Gen I and II. So, I would seriously contemplate used if I could find a pristine car, and there are more GT3s around.
Some people here have made great purchases.
So much of any opinion is colored by what cars are available, at the time, to the purchaser. And the sentiment towards new versus used, i.e. some can't get the new cars, some never buy used cars, some never buy new cars and on and on it goes. What you chose to afford enters into it as well; so I have no exact answer. It is all incremental and "value" dependent so there is no way to answer for someone else.
My mindset is such that I would take any RS (Gen I or II) over either of the GT3s...but if my wife would drive a car with a tail, I'd have a(nother) GT3 too, instead of a 997S.
If I am wrong about the RS (and the values of the Gen I fall through the floor)..there is your answer from my perspective.
People carped about the Gen I GT3 having a sunroof, the Gen II doesn't have a sunroof, so the purists are happier. But then (for the purist?) there is the RS...
All of the above applies new to new.
When you introduce used to the equation I don't think there is a $50 K difference in value between the Gen I and II. So, I would seriously contemplate used if I could find a pristine car, and there are more GT3s around.
Some people here have made great purchases.
So much of any opinion is colored by what cars are available, at the time, to the purchaser. And the sentiment towards new versus used, i.e. some can't get the new cars, some never buy used cars, some never buy new cars and on and on it goes. What you chose to afford enters into it as well; so I have no exact answer. It is all incremental and "value" dependent so there is no way to answer for someone else.
My mindset is such that I would take any RS (Gen I or II) over either of the GT3s...but if my wife would drive a car with a tail, I'd have a(nother) GT3 too, instead of a 997S.
If I am wrong about the RS (and the values of the Gen I fall through the floor)..there is your answer from my perspective.
10-01-2009, 04:28 AM
#12
Banned
I just found out yesterday from a Porsche rep that the number of RS's coming to the US is almost the same as the number of dealers; I think it was between 200 and 210. Not saying that each dealer gets one as we all know that is not how the allocation system works, but it just so happened that the numbers were almost identical. But just because this came from a Porsche rep doesn't mean it is a fact.
10-01-2009, 08:32 AM
#13
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Guys,
I have serious doubts about the so called shortage of RS models. Every time Porsche launches a new special car, rumors circulate about short supply. Porsche themselves remain silent. I recall the 996 GT2 - the story in the press was 911 to be built for world consumption. Yeah. Sure. Given the ugly sales picture for Porsche I believe they will build as many as they can sell. The alleged 210 cars for the USA probably means the first set of allocations. The half-truth certainly helps dealers selling cars at list or even over. There will be a second set of allocations, I am sure.
I have serious doubts about the so called shortage of RS models. Every time Porsche launches a new special car, rumors circulate about short supply. Porsche themselves remain silent. I recall the 996 GT2 - the story in the press was 911 to be built for world consumption. Yeah. Sure. Given the ugly sales picture for Porsche I believe they will build as many as they can sell. The alleged 210 cars for the USA probably means the first set of allocations. The half-truth certainly helps dealers selling cars at list or even over. There will be a second set of allocations, I am sure.
10-01-2009, 08:43 AM
#15
Three Wheelin'
Guys,
I have serious doubts about the so called shortage of RS models. Every time Porsche launches a new special car, rumors circulate about short supply. Porsche themselves remain silent. I recall the 996 GT2 - the story in the press was 911 to be built for world consumption. Yeah. Sure. Given the ugly sales picture for Porsche I believe they will build as many as they can sell. The alleged 210 cars for the USA probably means the first set of allocations. The half-truth certainly helps dealers selling cars at list or even over. There will be a second set of allocations, I am sure.
I have serious doubts about the so called shortage of RS models. Every time Porsche launches a new special car, rumors circulate about short supply. Porsche themselves remain silent. I recall the 996 GT2 - the story in the press was 911 to be built for world consumption. Yeah. Sure. Given the ugly sales picture for Porsche I believe they will build as many as they can sell. The alleged 210 cars for the USA probably means the first set of allocations. The half-truth certainly helps dealers selling cars at list or even over. There will be a second set of allocations, I am sure.