RS or Scuderia?
10-05-2009, 12:25 AM
#61
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I don't post here so often, but having owned a CS, a Scud, a 997 GT3, currently own a 16M and am awaiting a GT3-RSII I feel qualified to offer an opinion 
I guess I'm one of the exceptions in the Ferrari world, I did 21K miles in the CS in 3 years, I did 3K in the Scud before swapping it for the 16M.
At 241 miles on the clock in the 16M I left Boston and 8 days later hit San Francisco, via Skyline Drive, the Tail of the Dragon, Rocky Mountain National Park and US50 across Nevada. It now has 5300 miles on it.
I've also raced in the challenge series (last year) and raced @ Daytona this year in a Grand-Am spec GT3. My views are:
Grand-AM GT3 is a real race car, Challenge car is a road-race car. The P-car is also a more difficult car to be truly fast in - having pro drive our GT3 and see the difference in the data at Daytona between 1.52-1.54 in our hands and 1.50 flat in his is somewhat humbling. The challenge car is a great car to race, but its too heavy, and doesn't like to turn in very much. Both are very very expensive to run in earnest - I reckon circa 100$ a lap when run properly (tires every 60 laps, engine rebuilds, gearbox rebuilds, carbon rotors on the fcar). I think that the shorter cycle on engine/gearbox life on the Porsche kind of offset the ludicrous brakes on the Ferrari.
On the road, the Scud and the GT3 were really quite different animals but what they have in common is both are hugely superior to regular models in the range. I drove a stock 430 back to back with a Scud on track and its a world of difference. Both cars are set up inadequately out of the box for the track, but both are set up "safe". 430 is under tired at the front so needs some rake to dial out the understeer and a certain driving style. P-car doesn't like to roll speed the same way the 430 does.
On bang for the buck, GT3-RS is way superior. But the ferrari really does have a huge sense of occasion to it.
As a road car, I'm afraid I'd recommend the 16M, the noise, the experience is simply multiplied by being roof down. If you're on FB check out "Super Cars Across America" for a bunch of video including the 16M on the tail of the dragon (plus footage of a few other cool cars that were on the trip).
I owned a GT3, CS and Scud all at the same time for a while and kept the Scud. Now I have a 16M I'm adding back a GT3-RS. I don't think anyone really needs to apologize for either choice!
I guess I'm one of the exceptions in the Ferrari world, I did 21K miles in the CS in 3 years, I did 3K in the Scud before swapping it for the 16M.
At 241 miles on the clock in the 16M I left Boston and 8 days later hit San Francisco, via Skyline Drive, the Tail of the Dragon, Rocky Mountain National Park and US50 across Nevada. It now has 5300 miles on it.
I've also raced in the challenge series (last year) and raced @ Daytona this year in a Grand-Am spec GT3. My views are:
Grand-AM GT3 is a real race car, Challenge car is a road-race car. The P-car is also a more difficult car to be truly fast in - having pro drive our GT3 and see the difference in the data at Daytona between 1.52-1.54 in our hands and 1.50 flat in his is somewhat humbling. The challenge car is a great car to race, but its too heavy, and doesn't like to turn in very much. Both are very very expensive to run in earnest - I reckon circa 100$ a lap when run properly (tires every 60 laps, engine rebuilds, gearbox rebuilds, carbon rotors on the fcar). I think that the shorter cycle on engine/gearbox life on the Porsche kind of offset the ludicrous brakes on the Ferrari.
On the road, the Scud and the GT3 were really quite different animals but what they have in common is both are hugely superior to regular models in the range. I drove a stock 430 back to back with a Scud on track and its a world of difference. Both cars are set up inadequately out of the box for the track, but both are set up "safe". 430 is under tired at the front so needs some rake to dial out the understeer and a certain driving style. P-car doesn't like to roll speed the same way the 430 does.
On bang for the buck, GT3-RS is way superior. But the ferrari really does have a huge sense of occasion to it.
As a road car, I'm afraid I'd recommend the 16M, the noise, the experience is simply multiplied by being roof down. If you're on FB check out "Super Cars Across America" for a bunch of video including the 16M on the tail of the dragon (plus footage of a few other cool cars that were on the trip).
I owned a GT3, CS and Scud all at the same time for a while and kept the Scud. Now I have a 16M I'm adding back a GT3-RS. I don't think anyone really needs to apologize for either choice!
It is just beyond me why anyone would want to cut the roof off a race car...
If you can't hear a Scud well enough with the windows down, turn the hearing aid up to 10 and live a little....
10-05-2009, 04:59 PM
#63
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Neither the Scuderia Coupe or Cabrio have a dual clutch. They use a single clutch, single shaft transmission with upgraded actuators and software (aka SuperFast2).
Only the 458 Italia and the California use a double shaft, dual clutch transmission made by the same company building the BMW M3 DCT transmission (Getrag).
Only the 458 Italia and the California use a double shaft, dual clutch transmission made by the same company building the BMW M3 DCT transmission (Getrag).
10-05-2009, 05:07 PM
#64
This page says it's the same "F1 Superfast" which is the same as the Scuderia. The same single-acting clutch with six ratios and 60ms shifts (I think 40ms power interruption.) The dual is a 7spd.
http://www.ferrari.com/English/GT_Sp...pider_16M.aspx
Is there another version of the 16M?
http://www.ferrari.com/English/GT_Sp...pider_16M.aspx
Is there another version of the 16M?
10-05-2009, 08:48 PM
#65
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I say Porsche all the way! Ferrari drivers are different from Porsche drivers. Granted the Scud is a beautiful beast, sounds amazing, and handles like a dream, but the image doesn't fit me. I stick to my German heritage.
10-06-2009, 12:17 AM
#66
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Neither the Scuderia Coupe or Cabrio have a dual clutch. They use a single clutch, single shaft transmission with upgraded actuators and software (aka SuperFast2).
Only the 458 Italia and the California use a double shaft, dual clutch transmission made by the same company building the BMW M3 DCT transmission (Getrag).
Only the 458 Italia and the California use a double shaft, dual clutch transmission made by the same company building the BMW M3 DCT transmission (Getrag).
I have the hard top and i can definately vouch for it being a single,but its finicky for road use,so i could see how they would change it out for a car not intended for track use.
Have you driven the 16m or know someone who has? I would be interested to know what is in there. This is all news to me.
cheers
10-06-2009, 01:16 AM
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^
I know you are new here (posting anyways, but you seem to making a lot of "incorrect" assumptions:-
1) About people never driving the RS Gen I again
2) About individual moods (angry and upset)
3) The dual clutch on the 16M
Since you have a Scuderia, and have information direct from Ferrari (per your posts) I am having a hard time reconciling the disconnects, and lack of knowledge on the 16M.
Again, since you are a relatively new poster, there are a lot of sophisticated car guys here (not me) who know Porsche, Ferrari and many other makes quite intimately. So you might drop some of the assumptions and do some fact checking before you "expose" yourself.
Do you want to trade Ferrari pictures, if so PM me; I have tons of the new F458?
I know you are new here (posting anyways, but you seem to making a lot of "incorrect" assumptions:-
1) About people never driving the RS Gen I again
2) About individual moods (angry and upset)
3) The dual clutch on the 16M
Since you have a Scuderia, and have information direct from Ferrari (per your posts) I am having a hard time reconciling the disconnects, and lack of knowledge on the 16M.
Again, since you are a relatively new poster, there are a lot of sophisticated car guys here (not me) who know Porsche, Ferrari and many other makes quite intimately. So you might drop some of the assumptions and do some fact checking before you "expose" yourself.
Do you want to trade Ferrari pictures, if so PM me; I have tons of the new F458?
10-06-2009, 04:25 AM
#68
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^
I know you are new here (posting anyways, but you seem to making a lot of "incorrect" assumptions:-
1) About people never driving the RS Gen I again
2) About individual moods (angry and upset)
3) The dual clutch on the 16M
Since you have a Scuderia, and have information direct from Ferrari (per your posts) I am having a hard time reconciling the disconnects, and lack of knowledge on the 16M.
Again, since you are a relatively new poster, there are a lot of sophisticated car guys here (not me) who know Porsche, Ferrari and many other makes quite intimately. So you might drop some of the assumptions and do some fact checking before you "expose" yourself.
Do you want to trade Ferrari pictures, if so PM me; I have tons of the new F458?
I know you are new here (posting anyways, but you seem to making a lot of "incorrect" assumptions:-
1) About people never driving the RS Gen I again
2) About individual moods (angry and upset)
3) The dual clutch on the 16M
Since you have a Scuderia, and have information direct from Ferrari (per your posts) I am having a hard time reconciling the disconnects, and lack of knowledge on the 16M.
Again, since you are a relatively new poster, there are a lot of sophisticated car guys here (not me) who know Porsche, Ferrari and many other makes quite intimately. So you might drop some of the assumptions and do some fact checking before you "expose" yourself.
Do you want to trade Ferrari pictures, if so PM me; I have tons of the new F458?
1)If you read my post i believe i explained my position on that quite well. I never ment to get you upset, my opinion which I am entitled to, (maybe not on this forum according to you) was for people in "street's" situation, because he asked the question not you.
If my response was not what you wanted to hear does that make it incorrect? Its my opinion and i don't have to justify who I am to you, in order to make my point heard.
2)You are clearly angry and upset and you are flaming any chance you see possible even if it's unwarranted in every respect.
3)As for the 16m dual clutch I have still not heard a response from an actual owner yet. I was quite possibly misinformed and I am sorry if thats the case, and I am more than wiling to learn the truth of the matter. It's very interesting and I appreciate the knowledge that some forum members have.
Here are some sites that corroborate my info and I am willing to admit they are wrong too but the information is there. 6 speed dual clutch
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/11/09/o...o-celebrate-f/
http://www.supercars.net/cars/4267.html
http://www.worldcarfans.com/10811091...pider-revealed
as for the rest of your post i find it to be rude and condescending, qualities that a message board shouldn't condone especially towards new posters.
I know you will selectively read this response, as you do all my others because the message in your sig obviously serves as a sign post.
10-06-2009, 05:34 AM
#69
1)If you read my post i believe i explained my position on that quite well. I never ment to get you upset, my opinion which I am entitled to, (maybe not on this forum according to you) was for people in "street's" situation, because he asked the question not you.
If my response was not what you wanted to hear does that make it incorrect? Its my opinion and i don't have to justify who I am to you, in order to make my point heard.
2)You are clearly angry and upset and you are flaming any chance you see possible even if it's unwarranted in every respect.
3)As for the 16m dual clutch I have still not heard a response from an actual owner yet. I was quite possibly misinformed and I am sorry if thats the case, and I am more than wiling to learn the truth of the matter. It's very interesting and I appreciate the knowledge that some forum members have.
Here are some sites that corroborate my info and I am willing to admit they are wrong too but the information is there. 6 speed dual clutch
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/11/09/o...o-celebrate-f/
http://www.supercars.net/cars/4267.html
http://www.worldcarfans.com/10811091...pider-revealed
as for the rest of your post i find it to be rude and condescending, qualities that a message board shouldn't condone especially towards new posters.
I know you will selectively read this response, as you do all my others because the message in your sig obviously serves as a sign post.
If my response was not what you wanted to hear does that make it incorrect? Its my opinion and i don't have to justify who I am to you, in order to make my point heard.
2)You are clearly angry and upset and you are flaming any chance you see possible even if it's unwarranted in every respect.
3)As for the 16m dual clutch I have still not heard a response from an actual owner yet. I was quite possibly misinformed and I am sorry if thats the case, and I am more than wiling to learn the truth of the matter. It's very interesting and I appreciate the knowledge that some forum members have.
Here are some sites that corroborate my info and I am willing to admit they are wrong too but the information is there. 6 speed dual clutch
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/11/09/o...o-celebrate-f/
http://www.supercars.net/cars/4267.html
http://www.worldcarfans.com/10811091...pider-revealed
as for the rest of your post i find it to be rude and condescending, qualities that a message board shouldn't condone especially towards new posters.
I know you will selectively read this response, as you do all my others because the message in your sig obviously serves as a sign post.
The "dual" reference you spotted might be a reference to the F1 box having two clutch plates. In any case, I had to go check for myself in case Ferrari had done something unexpected since I last drove the Scuderia. I've not found Ferrari to be the most communicative of organizations, so anything's possible.
Here's a Ferrari corporate site explaining the Superfast2 box shared by the Scuderia and 16M.
http://www.ferrari.com/English/GT_Sp...uperfast2.aspx
And a Ferrari corporate site showing the soft top design of the car.
http://cdn.ferrari.com/Site%20Collec...ng/default.htm
I suggest you "park" your umbrage at the tone of the earlier replies. In the context of a new user posting to a Porsche forum site, purporting to own a Scuderia, yet not knowing about Ferrari's current models, well, I think you've been met with remarkably cordial and informative replies from several people. So please feel welcome here, not insulted. Worse things have happened at sea. : )
10-06-2009, 11:39 AM
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apparently from what a heard from ferrari prior to the car's launch its a 6 speed dry dual clutch.
I have the hard top and i can definately vouch for it being a single,but its finicky for road use,so i could see how they would change it out for a car not intended for track use.
Have you driven the 16m or know someone who has? I would be interested to know what is in there. This is all news to me.
cheers
I have the hard top and i can definately vouch for it being a single,but its finicky for road use,so i could see how they would change it out for a car not intended for track use.
Have you driven the 16m or know someone who has? I would be interested to know what is in there. This is all news to me.
cheers
i was in the NJGT hardtop and it wasnt "finicky" . i was actually blown away how easy it was to use everyday! And how well it works with your foot into it
10-06-2009, 03:06 PM
#73
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RS = wife = stick shift, easy to figure out, low maintenance
scuderia = mistress, play toy.... = F1 gearbox, violent, fun, sometimes you can really f'k up and you need a new one.
i always have/had both... the wife and mistress, not the cars.
scuderia = mistress, play toy.... = F1 gearbox, violent, fun, sometimes you can really f'k up and you need a new one.
i always have/had both... the wife and mistress, not the cars.
10-06-2009, 03:22 PM
#74
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But the car is hardly ment to be an everyday user despite what they'll have you believe, its overkill to the highest degree.
You are correct, its an unbelievable system, and you can really 'blast your foot into it', its a bullet proof track car and easily serviced from the daily rigours of track work. but for someone to drive in everyday city conditions,it's less than ideal.
it would seem impossible for something so well tuned for those harsh conditions to be so compliant, but they did almost do the impossible.
That being said i wouldnt have the car any other way, the box suits the cars characteristics perfectly, and i was dissappointed to hear that they had apperantly changed it for the spider, but I'm glad to hear they didn't according to some posters.
I still love the rs and find it to be more of a purists car in every respect
10-06-2009, 03:38 PM
#75
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Take it to the dealer as something is wrong. Mine has never stalled. Post on Ferrarichat.com for additional feedback, there are quite a few very knowledgeable Ferrari sources in that site.
My Getrag DCT in the M3 has stalled several times in tight spots and stop lights (dangerous). Same manufacturer as the Cali and Italia DCT. 2 software upgrades were installed, after the last upgrade it hasn't stalled anymore. It still refuses to downshift from high RPM (the Scuderia does it without any trauma). I hope Ferrari and Getrag get it right in 2011/2012 when the time is due for their RS/Stradale/Scuderia version of the Italia.
My Getrag DCT in the M3 has stalled several times in tight spots and stop lights (dangerous). Same manufacturer as the Cali and Italia DCT. 2 software upgrades were installed, after the last upgrade it hasn't stalled anymore. It still refuses to downshift from high RPM (the Scuderia does it without any trauma). I hope Ferrari and Getrag get it right in 2011/2012 when the time is due for their RS/Stradale/Scuderia version of the Italia.