TB993tt

Its better than my schoolboy French, that's for sure

M275

Very Interesting.

So you are saying that RS Tuning does Ferrari's, Fords and Audi's for EDO?
Would you happen to know who does Mercedes' for CG?

TB993tt

No, I 'm not certain of all the makes RS do for EDO.

RS can tune any engine (obviously) but the main factor in deciding which to "pick on" is the cost of setting up their engine dyno to be able to properly run the new engine.

Engines which I know they do have the equipment to get on the dyno are:

All Porsche including Cayenne (which I guess means Panamera now)

Ferrari Enzo - saw one of these on the dyno, 6.2 litre classicly tuned, apparently RS reckon these are very stout motors, better than the CGT

Ford GT, again they had one there when I visited...

Don't know who EDO use for Audi ?

Cargraphic don't offer engine tuning for Mercedes AFAIK ? My favourite Mercedes tuner is Wolfgang Vaeth, real old school engineering

TB993tt

I ran this data for a discussion on another forum so thought I would add to this thread:

On a recent airfield day I managed to sneak my laptop into the cockpit (under the prying eyes of the scruiteneers) and record IAT data for 1 run.
I also logged the run on a Driftbox, you can see it on the chart below, went a maximum of 194mph is 30.06s.

I stuck some numbers into excel basically I read off from the Drifbox numbers the elapsed time for every 10mph increment and noted to IAT from the Durametric at that precise moment. Wrote it all down, stuck it into excel, trimmed the scaling and it comes out as below:

The left scale is IAT in degC and if you mulitply the left scale by 10 it is also speed in mph. Bottom scale is the actual elapsed time.

It was a 13 DegC ambient and sitting with engine idling on the start line for 5 minutes "heat soaking" :smilie: it was reading a steady 20.2DegC before the acceleration started.

Note the engine is tuned on an expensive engine dyno using a water cooled intercooler to give IATs as my tuner experienced with my intercoolers. The engine was boosting at between 1.4 and 1.6bar for this run on its modified VTGs.....

What I found particularly interesting is how the IAT levelled off at very high speed and with 1.49bar pumping into it for 4.4s from 185mph to 194mph the IAT actually dropped from 38.2 to 36.7DegC - That gents is a Porsche tuned for the Autobahn !

eclou

looks like 0-300kph in ~ 26s with a very modest launch. Great work Toby!

TB993tt

Thanks Gene - got a best of 25.9s on that day but couldn't/wouldn't nail the start well enough to go sub 4s for the 0-100kph - YOU know how that is

I expected better in light of the Cargraphic 630PS/900NM Carrillo car's 14.8s 200-300kph (mine was 0.78s slower) but one can never underestimate the effect of a stout torque curve !

eclou

I think weather conditions will play a big role in the 200-300kph. Any amount of wind can affect the drag enough to account for <1s. Did you do a run in each direction?

TB993tt

No, you know what these closed airfield runs are like but I did enough runs to get very consistent times - it was a perfectly still day.

TB993tt

Interestingly Cargraphic are now listing a.n other's intercooler as an alternative to the Secan "EVO" units.....
The claim is drops IAT by 25%..... wonder how they worked that one out

MGS996

Well spotted ! I would be interested in a direct comparison between the two options. $$$ per hp gain.

TB993tt

The "hp gain" is an interesting and not so obvious to work out question isn't it ?

If you believe that measuring hp from the different intercoolers on the same engine same day on a chassis dyno with a fixed air speed blowing through the coolers gives credible results then that is one method - personally whilst this test obviously proves something, it does not replicate in any way the real on road airflow through the cores so is very flawed.

Then we have the state of tune (ie the way the engine is mapped) of the engine.....
An engine can be mapped to the capabilities of the intercooler but referring to what I say above is the mapper working with the real road IATs when he is mapping on his chassis dyno with his puny fixed airflow going through the cores ?.

As I posted before, the way RS do it is test the intercoolers on the road on a known mapped car (ie one which gives factory like IATs) and note the maximum IATs that the engine sees - then using their water cooled intercooler on the engine dyno mapping using the known maximum IATs for their reference.

Simply bolting better cooling intercoolers on any Porsche turbo platform will not necessarily give more hp without new mapping since the ECU will adjust the boost to hit the amount of air mass it is asking for (the air mass per unit volume will have increased if the intercoolers are cooling the air better than before).

When a stock intercooler allows IATs on a stock motor to rise above the threshold of maximum timing advance (we believe 55degC on the 997tt) then at this point a better performing intercooler is winning you extra hp since it could keep the IAT below that 55degC and maintain you that hp which would have been lost with the stock units - but is that actually "increasing" hp

My glib words about Cargraphic's 25% reduction and 40% reduction are there for this exact reason - at what point are they measuring that 25% or 40% reduction ? My bet is they are not and never have, it is guesswork/marketing speak.
RS Tuning say the only valid method is to look at the maximum delta of IAT above ambient ie what is the maximum IAT reached above outside temperature when the engine is loaded heavily and by heavily they mean maximum speed or track work, the more challenging being track work since the lack of air flow through the cores makes it the harder test.... (they quote for the Secan 20DegC above ambient)

What often ends up happening in racing is that the 700hp turbo Porsches are miraculously outpaced by the 600hp turbo Porsches which demonstrates that even in competative motorsport where performance really matters it is not a simple thing to get right so its always going to be a struggle for us amateurs in a sea of marketing, hype and spin !

Z06

TB, I guess what your saying is that RS T has not signed off or tested these IC?

Do you think these IC are U.S. EVO units?

I am intested in the next step, purchasing IC now.... +debating bigger turbos and air duct.

What do you think would be best for track use?

TB993tt

Doubt it....

Don't know. There are a few people making these over in Europe. 9ff has a supplier as does Manthey...I'm sure they work better than stock, just how well ?
You know my answer to that one already

The bigger turbos also help in this IAT management and enable the 635PS RS kit to produce this DIN power with standard intercoolers....

I would be very interested if you bought and tested a set of the cheaper intercooler offerings out there - if they work then even bolting them into your 600 kit is going to help in Summer temperatures. Problem is because non of these intercooler "manufacturers" provide any real data, you are the guinea pig and if they don't work there is not a lot you can say since there are no performance guarantees.....

MGS996

Speaking of guinea pigs. Do Cargraphic have any quality control? I fitted my 600PS package today. But had to cut the right hand cat in half to correct the angle of the pipe which meets the muffler, then TIG welded it back together. It was out of alignment by >10mm. After fitting the headers/cats & air filter the performance gains are now apparent.....traction control light flashing like crazy. (pics also on 6speed)

GT

Bolting on the EVO units to an already tuned engine without software
update is not recommended as the significant better flow will increase
your boost pressure and without proper ecu calibration there could be
problems. I am talking out of experience as I did just that over a year
ago. Peak overboost went to 1.8 bar!!!
On another note the EVO units do work moticeable better than stock,
primarily due to thw fact that they flow much better. That also means that
the reduce turbo lag as well. However the cores are quite average quality
which means that once they get hot, they take long time to cool down as well.
(Heat soak..)
This is where the secans etc justify their price.