stout

With fun factor and money factored in: (Slightly) Used Turbo Cab + a few K1 bits = done.

Given the kids and your having a Cup to play with, that's my vote.

pete

thusly

My Cup has been substantially modified from a "stock cup" - carbon fiber doors, front fenders and bumpers, hood, two piece rotors front and rear, fuel cell, lightened battery, electric steering, lexan, etc. Also has an RSR engine with approx 440 hp, along with shortened gears. Total weight is about 2,450. The weight (and performance) difference is massive compared to a street car (I know, it isn't a fair comparison, but rather, just a frame of reference). However, the air conditioning and clock in the cup don't work for crap.

Not sure about anyone else, but even on my street cars (that have been significantly modfied for the track), I feel the difference in performance and on lap times (on the track) by just changing out the stock wheels for lighter weight ones.

stout

On track, weight is everything, followed/complemented by aero/grip/braking/power. I found this to be so very true in an early 911 Spec racer that was faster around T-hill on R-compound street tires with just 250 hp and no truly trick gear than a new GT3 RS street car with 415 hp but 600 more pounds. The old car was also a lot more fun and seemed much better suited to track work and tougher, too. All this greatly affected my view of street cars on race tracks...

Your Cup sounds a potent beast. Enjoy!

pete

iLLM3

What a monster!!!

And of course some nice lightweight wheels from stock would make a big difference (unsprung weight) in handling,acceleration even and especially braking!

grussell

My 3.8L GT3 motor puts down 422RWHP

allegretto

Oh snap,just drove it!!!

Clutch and noise more like a GT3. Suspension more like a TT. Acceleration...like a Rhino

I might have to buy this...

iLLM3

Suspension like a TT, uhhhhh no LOL

C.J. Ichiban

340 said 'can be easily modified to nearly 500hp' (single quote= paraphrase) to which I guessed that a 3.8kit would be worth 35ish extra hp over stock...guess I should change that to 40-45 but either way it's not 500hp...and from the looks of your conversion- I'm guessing none of that came cheap or easy!

getting 500 hp from a gt3 engine...well that's funny just to picture on so many levels

allegretto

I understand. But what I mean is that it's very soft compared to the 3's in street situations.

cgomez

What????!!
That's so ill informed!!

No suspension component in the GT2 is any softer than in a GT3RS (actually, even stiffer as most people are swapping their GT3s rear sway bars for GT2s).

If you think otherwise please provide facts and hard data.

allegretto

You fellas are a hoot!

Of the family of street 997's, I have personally owned;

C4S Cab
TT Coupe
GT3
GT3 RS

and drove a TT Cab

Yesterday I drove an example of a GT2. I expected it to be RS rough. It was not. Felt more like a firm TT.

You may disagee, that's OK. But my subjective opinion of the feel is not "ill informed", actually quite the opposite. I'm really very comfortable with my assessment. The only hard data that would be relevant I suppose would be a vertical accelerometer. Perhaps the seats (those carbon-clad sport seats are FAR more comfortable than I expected) contributed to the experience.

In any case, I found the car much more comfortable than I expected. I was never really comfortable with the RS's ride, this one felt good immediately. That's the only data and facts I need in truth. Sometimes ya just have go by the seat of your pants.

I wonder if excmag's opinion is different than mine...?

pmf

Hello allegretto,

I'm currently driving a factory std GT2. The RS I have been onboard just as passenger, but never driving, on street and track.
I actually have your same feeling. Std GT2 setup is on my opinion too soft for the car and you end up with using sport mode all time. A good friend of mine, professional driver, agrees.
I think it is due to factory setup.
It is true that sway bars are excellent, I'm wondering if the dampers and single springs are stiff enough.
I will testing the Bilstein B16 damptronics in one month, to check if the car will be any better.
At least, having pre-load springs I should be able to lower it another 5mm at the front.

I would love to know which setup Rohrl used at the Nurburgring.

Cheers,
pmf


PS: Again, no hard data, just onboard feeling.

stout

Maybe with NOS (but only if pronounced "nawssss," of course)?

pete

stout

Personally, I think what you are feeling in the GT2 is good damping, not a setup that's too soft. Go ahead and push the car hard and then tell me similar it is to a 997 Turbo. It is not similar, at all.

GT3/RS damping has been my biggest complaint with that platform since its introduction. Mediocre or even poor damping in standard, worse in Sport, and PASM adjustments that are reactive not active. This is my opinion, but it is one that was backed up by a local suspension genius (who was blown away by how jiggly the ride was), a professional Porsche racer with a lengthy resume, and watching two good friends with back issues who can handle a sporting car's ride quality wince in pain over little bumps and ripples in the street at 25-35 mph. I know others will disagree, but I find the chassis too fidget for no appreciable gain. Remember too that the U.S. GT3 seats should be better than the new GT2 seats in terms of adding a bit of cushion.

I've driven cars with MUCH higher spring rates that ride far better than a stock 997 GT3. Heck, I've driven hoary old torsion-bar 911s with huge bars that ride better than the GT3 despite its massive advantage in terms of rear susp. design.

In contrast, GT2 damping seems very, very good to me, filtering out a lot of the ripples and bumps the GT3/RS fails to around town and on the freeway, and exhibiting absolutely superior body control on our demanding road test loop and at Infineon Raceway. And, unlike previous PASM setups, I found PASM's Sport setting useful out on our test loop. Initially, it felt too stiff, but then it seemed to dial in. Or maybe that was me. Either way, only on the roughest sections did I disengage it. Seems to me that is as it should be.

Johannes van Overbeek was stunned by the GT2's goodness around Infineon, and his lap times in the car. Never did he say it felt too soft (but he was, as I was, evaluating it as a street car....), he only noted, as I did, that the chassis was simply brilliant. As I wrote initially, I think only very few will ever understand how good the 997 GT2 really is. Few will own them, and fewer still (by a lot?) will drive them hard enough to know the brilliance. And then there will be a few who simply prefer NA power, period. I like either, so long as the rest of the car is good. In this case, the chassis of the GT2 makes it outshine the GT3/RS for me. I know others have had different experiences, and I have read these with keen interest.

But I dunno, when I read a lot of comments about how "raw" the RS is, and especially with re: to the ride/suspension, I think people are mistaking poor damper tuning for some sort of edge. Don't get me wrong: it's a fast car and I get (and love) raw. But there is a fine line between raw and rough. And, when it comes to suspension, poor damping makes you slower, not faster. The fast cars are always the ones where the wheels follow the road surface and the body stays relatively unperturbed.

I can see this on the freeway in various cars I've tested with damper tuning I didn't like. Watch an E39 5's wheels in their wells as it goes down the road, and its body. The wheels are constantly moving, the body isn't. RS4 is another interesting car to watch in this way. But, in a car with poor damping, the body moves up and down with the road, not the wheels. I used to watch a friend's early 997 GT3 bounce and jiggle all the way down Doyle by the Golden Gate Bridge on his morning commute. I could see it from across that "freeway." Surprisingly, I've seen the same in pro race cars. A White Lightning GT3 RSR that won Le Mans was super jiggly over the bumps up the hill to T1 at Infineon years ago. The fact the AJR and FLM 911s weren't seemed to indicate the Petersen car was still running Le Mans setup, or a poor one by comparison to the others. In any event, it looked like a handful -- though it may be they were sacrificing control there for stiffness elsewhere. But they were the only ones doing it.

This leads me to think that even the best can struggle with damper tuning, and that it is an art as much as it is a science. My perception is that the new GT2's damping is MILES ahead of the GT3's, and that its other suspension tweaks (which suggest Weissach saw real room for improvement, unlike in the 996 days) add up to a car you're more confident in. I usually go faster in those, feel safer in those, have more fun in those, and develop a better bond with those.

But this is just my take. As we have seen here, your results may vary!

And sorry for the long ol' post!

pete

allegretto

Thanks Pete, for putting my subjective impressions into an objective context. Your explanation makes perfect sense. I didn't mean that the GT2 was soft. Just that the ride was far better than I would have anticipated having owned 3's. And in overall comfort it really feels slightly firmer than a TT, at street speeds that is...