PCCB Weight Loss
06-11-2008, 12:37 PM
#1
Banned
Thread Starter
PCCB Weight Loss
I am officially switching to PCCB's on my GT3.
My question is, how much weight will my car lose my switching to the PCCBs vs. my regular steel rotors?
I did do a search and found some numbers, but they don't all match. I also do not want to post those numbers so as not to affect any of the answers.
I do know that you also need to change the front uprights and wheel bearings and hubs; or so I was told. But all of these parts are included with my PCCB's, so I will report on these differences also
I will do my own accurate weighing of all the parts (including uprights, bearings, hubs, rotors, calipers, sensors, etc...) when I switch so that I can share the exact weight savings for the record.
By this time next week I will be under 3,000 lbs with a half tank of gas!!!
My question is, how much weight will my car lose my switching to the PCCBs vs. my regular steel rotors?
I did do a search and found some numbers, but they don't all match. I also do not want to post those numbers so as not to affect any of the answers.
I do know that you also need to change the front uprights and wheel bearings and hubs; or so I was told. But all of these parts are included with my PCCB's, so I will report on these differences also
I will do my own accurate weighing of all the parts (including uprights, bearings, hubs, rotors, calipers, sensors, etc...) when I switch so that I can share the exact weight savings for the record.
By this time next week I will be under 3,000 lbs with a half tank of gas!!!
06-11-2008, 01:24 PM
#3
It's not official, but it sounds like they know what they're talking about:
http://abrn.search-autoparts.com/abr...tegoryId=42109
I thought I read somewhere that the retrofit was very complicated and expensive. Have they simplified the process?
Porsche claims two major reasons for offering the PCCB system. Fade resistance is one (high-speed braking "second to none, with almost total fade resistance," according to company literature). The other is weight saving; the 13.78-inch rotor weighs 11 lbs.—roughly half the weight of a conventional disc. The system shaves a total of about 34½ lbs. from under the car (apparently the calipers and/or ancillary equipment somewhat outweigh those used with conventional brakes). Porsche calls this a major reduction in both unsprung and rotational mass. There's a side benefit, too—no disc corrosion. v
I thought I read somewhere that the retrofit was very complicated and expensive. Have they simplified the process?
06-11-2008, 02:41 PM
#5
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Rennlist Member
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...on the 996 GT3 it saves 42 lbs, on the 997 GT3 it saves around 36 lbs.
I weighed all the parts for the 996 GT3 version.
For the 997, I use the car weight I got from several owners and race shops doing alignment and corner weights, removing the fuel load, so I can have the total car weight with all options.
The weight reduction is not as good on the 997 GT3, because the front rotor is much bigger (380mm vs. 350mm).
The PCCB cars have different front uprights, but I don't think they are needed when switching to PCCB, Porsche probably did not want the caliper to sit so low on the PCCB cars for street use.
The uprights on the conventional brakes cars are much better, because they lower the center of gravity, and there is more airflow towards the caliper (helping cooling).
Please, post about your upgrade cost. I found a car on the color I want, but it does not have PCCB, and I want PCCB.
Switching uprights is quite expensive.
I weighed all the parts for the 996 GT3 version.
For the 997, I use the car weight I got from several owners and race shops doing alignment and corner weights, removing the fuel load, so I can have the total car weight with all options.
The weight reduction is not as good on the 997 GT3, because the front rotor is much bigger (380mm vs. 350mm).
The PCCB cars have different front uprights, but I don't think they are needed when switching to PCCB, Porsche probably did not want the caliper to sit so low on the PCCB cars for street use.
The uprights on the conventional brakes cars are much better, because they lower the center of gravity, and there is more airflow towards the caliper (helping cooling).
Please, post about your upgrade cost. I found a car on the color I want, but it does not have PCCB, and I want PCCB.
Switching uprights is quite expensive.
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06-11-2008, 07:48 PM
#8
Banned
Thread Starter
The second RS, which I was not expecting to come along went a little different. I had some good solid offers on my car from some dealers, and we also had a few dealers who were willing to "broker" the deal for us. Either way, we did finally come to an agreement on the price of his RS and had a dealer who would work with us. We had a verbal agreement. However, over the weekend the other party sold his car to someone else; I'm sure it was for more money. Now I understand that our deal was a little bit more complicated than me just showing up with a check in hand, but it was still a deal. Needless to say, I will not deal with this individual ever again. Both parties are Rennlist members.
But, as I mentioned in my ad, I will not shed any tears over this. I will instead invest some more money into my GT3 and make it even more special than it already is. And, I will more than likely buy a Lotus Exige S (as I also mentioned in my ad) in the very near future. I actually came within $1K today of buying an Exige, and may pick it up within the next week.
06-11-2008, 07:53 PM
#10
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Thread Starter
06-11-2008, 09:20 PM
#11
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Rennlist Member
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You can actually buy an used GT3 with PCCB, swap brakes, put it back on the market for a negligible difference. Just don't get it registered (taxes...)
06-11-2008, 10:47 PM
#12
Banned
Thread Starter
That seems like the easy way to do it; and with very little risk! Here I am, like a sucker, buying a used set with 500 miles on them and installing them on my car.
So how much are my stock brakes worth, and which Porsche models will they fit? Will I be able to solicite the Boxster and Cayman community? I assume an of the C2 and C2's will work. Are my base GT3 brakes better than the base turbo brakes? How about the 996, will they fit those cars?
06-12-2008, 01:58 AM
#13
I'm keen to see how this PCCB swap goes.
Pricing on the stock "brakes" (by which I imagine you mean just the calipers and rotors) would be a matter of checking the parts prices with a dealer (quick) and then deciding on fair market value (I'd say just take off 20% and note that the buyer is not paying freight or tax.) Should be fair. But of course some Porsche parts pricing is insane, so you might have to consider the market competition.
I'd also just set those parts aside for a while until you sort out all the PCCB issues.
I haven't done the research, but you'd need to confirm every part number from flexible brake lines to wheel carriers (which are different) to ABS components and software programming and settings to build up the list of all the differences between iron and ceramic brakes. I'm optimistic that it's not such a big deal and you'd end up with distinctively "low slung" caliper positions on the fronts -- so i'm curious to see how that works out.
I had a PCCB and a "normal" 997 GT3 side by side for a while and i had them both up on the hoist to compare, but didn't have the motivation to actually start examining the differences or writing down part numbers. it all looked pretty similar.
I imagine a set of front and rear rotors is around US$15k plus calipers and a fresh set of pads (the rear pads are the same, but I'd certainly start with new pads to remove any risk.) I'd like to think it's as easy as telling the PIWIS that the car has PCCBs and that's that.
And replacement parts warranty is usually not the same as the new car factory warranty, so there might be only 90 days or whatever.
Pricing on the stock "brakes" (by which I imagine you mean just the calipers and rotors) would be a matter of checking the parts prices with a dealer (quick) and then deciding on fair market value (I'd say just take off 20% and note that the buyer is not paying freight or tax.) Should be fair. But of course some Porsche parts pricing is insane, so you might have to consider the market competition.
I'd also just set those parts aside for a while until you sort out all the PCCB issues.
I haven't done the research, but you'd need to confirm every part number from flexible brake lines to wheel carriers (which are different) to ABS components and software programming and settings to build up the list of all the differences between iron and ceramic brakes. I'm optimistic that it's not such a big deal and you'd end up with distinctively "low slung" caliper positions on the fronts -- so i'm curious to see how that works out.
I had a PCCB and a "normal" 997 GT3 side by side for a while and i had them both up on the hoist to compare, but didn't have the motivation to actually start examining the differences or writing down part numbers. it all looked pretty similar.
I imagine a set of front and rear rotors is around US$15k plus calipers and a fresh set of pads (the rear pads are the same, but I'd certainly start with new pads to remove any risk.) I'd like to think it's as easy as telling the PIWIS that the car has PCCBs and that's that.
And replacement parts warranty is usually not the same as the new car factory warranty, so there might be only 90 days or whatever.
06-12-2008, 03:55 AM
#14
Banned
Thread Starter
Thank you, all good points and observations. I will make sure and address all of these items and take good notes for anyone else wanting to do the same swap.
What is funny (maybe) is that the only reason, or 95% of the reason, that I am doing this is for the weight savings. it looks like it will be between 34 and 36 lbs total. That is not bad and I am happy with that, but I was hoping to break the 40 lb mark with these.
Because of this, the regular Brembo GT's look tempting with a minimum 32 lb weight savings. However, now that I know the weight savings of the PCCB's, I don't believe that the GT's save that much weight. Besides, Alex Ross told me he thought the savings was closer to somewhere in the lower to mid 20's lb range for the GT's AND that they have a funny pedal feel.
And at the price that I am getting these slightly used PCCB's, they are not costinng me much more than the regular Brembo GT's. And the $20K Brembo GTR's would cost me more than twice as much as the PCCB's.
As for warranty, aren't brake parts, especailly rotors, usually not much of a warranty item anyway?
I will report back on the full conversion process, parts required, software changes and whatever else.
Another reason to get these is because they are an OEM part that is still very highly sought after by future potential buyers. If I do get it all sorted out and I am good to go, then I can sell my stock brakes to help offset the already reasonable price (in my case) of these PCCB's. Had I ordered them on my car from the factory, then I would not have a set of irons sitting around. Depending on what I get for my stock brakes, this conversion could come in at a very low price; thousands lower than if I had checked the PCCB box on my order sheet.
Stephen
What is funny (maybe) is that the only reason, or 95% of the reason, that I am doing this is for the weight savings. it looks like it will be between 34 and 36 lbs total. That is not bad and I am happy with that, but I was hoping to break the 40 lb mark with these.
Because of this, the regular Brembo GT's look tempting with a minimum 32 lb weight savings. However, now that I know the weight savings of the PCCB's, I don't believe that the GT's save that much weight. Besides, Alex Ross told me he thought the savings was closer to somewhere in the lower to mid 20's lb range for the GT's AND that they have a funny pedal feel.
And at the price that I am getting these slightly used PCCB's, they are not costinng me much more than the regular Brembo GT's. And the $20K Brembo GTR's would cost me more than twice as much as the PCCB's.
As for warranty, aren't brake parts, especailly rotors, usually not much of a warranty item anyway?
I will report back on the full conversion process, parts required, software changes and whatever else.
Another reason to get these is because they are an OEM part that is still very highly sought after by future potential buyers. If I do get it all sorted out and I am good to go, then I can sell my stock brakes to help offset the already reasonable price (in my case) of these PCCB's. Had I ordered them on my car from the factory, then I would not have a set of irons sitting around. Depending on what I get for my stock brakes, this conversion could come in at a very low price; thousands lower than if I had checked the PCCB box on my order sheet.
Stephen
I'm keen to see how this PCCB swap goes.
Pricing on the stock "brakes" (by which I imagine you mean just the calipers and rotors) would be a matter of checking the parts prices with a dealer (quick) and then deciding on fair market value (I'd say just take off 20% and note that the buyer is not paying freight or tax.) Should be fair. But of course some Porsche parts pricing is insane, so you might have to consider the market competition.
I'd also just set those parts aside for a while until you sort out all the PCCB issues.
I haven't done the research, but you'd need to confirm every part number from flexible brake lines to wheel carriers (which are different) to ABS components and software programming and settings to build up the list of all the differences between iron and ceramic brakes. I'm optimistic that it's not such a big deal and you'd end up with distinctively "low slung" caliper positions on the fronts -- so i'm curious to see how that works out.
I had a PCCB and a "normal" 997 GT3 side by side for a while and i had them both up on the hoist to compare, but didn't have the motivation to actually start examining the differences or writing down part numbers. it all looked pretty similar.
I imagine a set of front and rear rotors is around US$15k plus calipers and a fresh set of pads (the rear pads are the same, but I'd certainly start with new pads to remove any risk.) I'd like to think it's as easy as telling the PIWIS that the car has PCCBs and that's that.
And replacement parts warranty is usually not the same as the new car factory warranty, so there might be only 90 days or whatever.
Pricing on the stock "brakes" (by which I imagine you mean just the calipers and rotors) would be a matter of checking the parts prices with a dealer (quick) and then deciding on fair market value (I'd say just take off 20% and note that the buyer is not paying freight or tax.) Should be fair. But of course some Porsche parts pricing is insane, so you might have to consider the market competition.
I'd also just set those parts aside for a while until you sort out all the PCCB issues.
I haven't done the research, but you'd need to confirm every part number from flexible brake lines to wheel carriers (which are different) to ABS components and software programming and settings to build up the list of all the differences between iron and ceramic brakes. I'm optimistic that it's not such a big deal and you'd end up with distinctively "low slung" caliper positions on the fronts -- so i'm curious to see how that works out.
I had a PCCB and a "normal" 997 GT3 side by side for a while and i had them both up on the hoist to compare, but didn't have the motivation to actually start examining the differences or writing down part numbers. it all looked pretty similar.
I imagine a set of front and rear rotors is around US$15k plus calipers and a fresh set of pads (the rear pads are the same, but I'd certainly start with new pads to remove any risk.) I'd like to think it's as easy as telling the PIWIS that the car has PCCBs and that's that.
And replacement parts warranty is usually not the same as the new car factory warranty, so there might be only 90 days or whatever.
06-12-2008, 04:22 AM
#15
Keep in mind the weight saving contributes to both unsprung weight (road holding, braking performance) and driveline inertia (acceleration, braking, throttle response, steering feel.)
As for resale, there was a time when PCCBs were a question mark or a flat our liability on resale, but today in the context of a 997 GT3, I think a given buyer will fairly pay extra or choose the steels to save or with concern for track driving durability. So I think a given car with the ceramics will return a significant extra value on resale (if not dollar for dollar, at least a significant value.)
If you want to shave another pound or two off, you could go to Titanium lug bolts.
As for the Brembo "pedal feel" -- the given combination of larger calipers with bigger pistons and maybe a different pad or different pad travel could well tax the existing master cylinder. Just changing the rotor diameter creates a different torque characteristic. It's a more complex system that it might seem. I'd normally think a Brembo kit for a specific and well-understood car like the current GT3 would be a reliable choice, but I've seen kits disappoint for all kinds of reasons (not the least of which is usually the disappointment that for a huge outlay, well, brakes can still overheat, pads still do wear, rotors wear and you're not necessarily a better driver just because the stoppers let you overshoot the braking marker ...) but I know you're looking at weight savings.
I guess I should look at your other posts, but are you going to remove the sunroof, change to a lighter deck lid and wing? Use the factory euro spec carbon shell seats? Door trim? Thin carpet? Light exhaust? AC delete? (in summer?) Thin DOT glass? I imagine you've seen the work grussell put into his car in the early days with stripping it down to its frilly knickers.
As for resale, there was a time when PCCBs were a question mark or a flat our liability on resale, but today in the context of a 997 GT3, I think a given buyer will fairly pay extra or choose the steels to save or with concern for track driving durability. So I think a given car with the ceramics will return a significant extra value on resale (if not dollar for dollar, at least a significant value.)
If you want to shave another pound or two off, you could go to Titanium lug bolts.
As for the Brembo "pedal feel" -- the given combination of larger calipers with bigger pistons and maybe a different pad or different pad travel could well tax the existing master cylinder. Just changing the rotor diameter creates a different torque characteristic. It's a more complex system that it might seem. I'd normally think a Brembo kit for a specific and well-understood car like the current GT3 would be a reliable choice, but I've seen kits disappoint for all kinds of reasons (not the least of which is usually the disappointment that for a huge outlay, well, brakes can still overheat, pads still do wear, rotors wear and you're not necessarily a better driver just because the stoppers let you overshoot the braking marker ...) but I know you're looking at weight savings.
I guess I should look at your other posts, but are you going to remove the sunroof, change to a lighter deck lid and wing? Use the factory euro spec carbon shell seats? Door trim? Thin carpet? Light exhaust? AC delete? (in summer?) Thin DOT glass? I imagine you've seen the work grussell put into his car in the early days with stripping it down to its frilly knickers.