eclou

997TT's put down up to 440 whp stock. GTR's have put down from 450-480 whp (check NAGTROC forums) stock. 997TT's are crippled with only -0.4 deg camber in front. GTR's probably are not so hindered. The stock tires on a 997TT can be PS2, RE 050A (not Pole Position), or P Zero Rosso. GTR's have RE070 (R) compound tires. Stock for stock, I can understand how a GTR will edge out the TT for 2-3 laps on a tight roadcourse. I think the advantage would swing to the TT on a higher speed course running for 30 minutes or more. I think the real weak link on the GTR will be the inescapable brake fade that will start as the heat capacity is exceeded. Every 4000lbs uber-BMW trying to cut the mustard on the track will fail due to the brakes (even when upgraded), and the GTR will follow in kind.

OldGuy

Great points Eugene!!

Skylines have a nice bit of history but there aint no way I am buying this car. I am sorry I dont care what
it does -- its a Nissan. I would take the same $70K and buy a Z06. For performance cars I like value too but
I like to like the history of the marque. I might buy a maxima for my kid but thats it.

SpeedGeek

See, this is where I disagree.

In a drag race, trap speed is a good measure of power. Once the car is hooked up, it's all down to power to get to a high trap speed. Chassis magic plays little part once the tires are hooked to the road.

But on a circuit, the chassis plays an extremely important role in lap times. I'm NOT saying the Nissan's power is as advertised, just arguing against your logic above. As technology progresses, circuit lap times continue to improve much faster than bhp/ton would suggest. Better chassis make for better lap times. I posted earlier that the F430 Scuderia has 378 bhp/ton and gets around the Fiorano test track in exactly the same time as the 484 bhp/ton Enzo. Obviously chassis magic counts when lots of corners are involved. (I accept, however, that the 'Ring has much longer straights than Fiorano).

Somebody here posted that the GT-R can get to high-120 mph trap times in the quarter. If that's the case, there can be little argument that it's making a lot more than 480 crank bhp.

frayed

The laws of physics haven't been magically rewritten with the Skyline. Power issue aside, the grip it generates (and laptimes) is likely a function of what? Probably all the usual stuff: solid suspension design, decent dampers, sticky tires, but also: AWD and perhaps most importantly, a supercomputer behind the scenes doling out power to each corner to optimize grip.

As already pointed out in inital reviews, the car is not as revealing or rewarding to drive next to a GT3. No doubt some driver/road connection is lost through the computer managed contact patches and AWD. This car will prove a very different drive than the GT3 and I would think not particularly compelling to many sports car purists.

I don't earn a living driving sports cars on the track, so the experience is more important than ultimate 'ring laptimes, or C&D instrumented tests. And I think Eugene is right; you can only mask weight so much. That said, I'm looking forward to driving one!

SpeedGeek

Exactly! I agree on every point.

An AWD, computer-controlled, overweight, overpowered 'Ring killer may be an awesome engineering achievement, but it's not what I look for in a sports car. The GT3 feels light on its feet and, most important, it feels tactile. It feels a bit like a go-kart, and that's the reason I love it.

The true magic in a sports car is about how it feels in your hands. I've driven many of the latest cars - F430, Gallardo, Superleggera, Astons... The GT3 and F430 are in a league of their own when it comes to purity of feel and tactility. There may be many cars that can boast better numbers than the GT3, but until I drive one that feels as good, they won't be on my shopping list.

mamoroso

I think you will have to go backward, to the past to find a car that is more communicative than the GT3.

It's no secret that the new iteration of the 911 will have paddle shift technology, more advance PASM, e-diff etc...

You need to decide where to draw the line... The 997 GT3 with the PASM was first looked at suspiciously by the "purists", then accepted because it didn't really take away anyhting from the "pure" driving experience.

Or did it?

I think we are all trying to rationalize our choices whatever they may be. You see I too am not a professional car driver and what I am looking for is the total experience, not the fastest lap time.

You see I still take pleasure in a well done heel/toe downshift. Could I be faster in a 430 Scuderia? Hell yeah, but that is not really the point is it?

But I am afraid that things are going to get worse. PAG cannot/will not let a Nissan spank its best track car's behind at the Ring for long.

Expect more electronics and trickery to keep the car on the forefront.

After all Porsche switched from aircooling to keep up with the competition (low emission and noise regulations capped the power output of the aircooled motor).... I do not see them thinking more than twice before adding a pletora of intelligent devices to the cars to make them faster.

frayed

mamoroso,

I'm in agreement, though I do think that the migration from the 996 to the 997 platform was a major step forward in driving dynamics w/o destroying the 'feel' of the 911.

It seems to me, that the purists' sports cars will eventually go extinct, with precious few providing that steering feel that allows the driver to read the road, or that chassis that communicates so well to the seat of the pants that you can easily anticapate and adjust the car's attitude, whether oversteer or understeer.

When I was in the Ferrari market, I purposely didn't look at Stradales b/c I wanted a manual. Now, Ferrari's Scuderia has not only paddles, but an ediff that allows the hamfisted to be at WOT on every corner exit. That is not something I want in a sports car. But I'm in the minority, I think.

All signs point to PAG doing the same, for the reasons you point out.

SpeedGeek

I'm still in a 996 RS because I found the 997 version to have lost some purity of feel, unfortunately. (Yet interestingly, I found the 997 Carrera to have better feel than the 996 Carrera.)

Anyway, I accept that things move on and there's not much the purist can do about it. Fortunately, on average, it mostly gets better over time, not worse. I'm looking forward to a DFI GT3, but I will definitely forego PDK as long as possible. I just love the heel-toe footwork.

The F430 is still the sweetest feeling car on the road, I think. Turn CST off, and it will allow you all the fun you could want. But those paddles are a shame, although they do work really well.

cfjan

Dyno testing of the '09 GT-R:

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...ticleId=125172

Maybe not so sandbagging (if we believe this test)... ?!

mamoroso

I don't know... It would be interesting to see if there was 1 press car making the rounds and the comparisons and if they dynoed that very car...

I remember when the Mercedes SL 55 AMG came out it outgunned a Lambo Murcielago to 200mph... everubody was talking about it, only to find out that that particular car was a little.... more performing than the one Joe could buy at the dealership...

944CS

one thing is for sure - the styling isn't for everyone

amaist

Lol, some people are so desperate to have the latest toy before the other kids can get their hands on it.

The test was done with a Japan spec GTR that was shipped in pieces to the US and reassembled. It also had a 112 mph limiter mandatory in Japan. And everything was in Japanese. Super Ultimate Mega Happy JDM. Must be a hit with 16-year olds.

340Elise

I hope you guys who love the GT3 for the reasons that you mentioned have also considered and at least driven the Lotus Elise, and even better the Exige S.

I have found that the 997 GT3 is the only car in the world (that I can afford) that comes close to the satisfying driving experience of the latest Lotus cars. I think that overall the Exige S is still better because of the extremely light weight of the car, but the GT3 just does everything else so well besides only the purity of the drive (ergonomics, practicality, safety, solid as a rock with no creaks, etc...) that I replaced my Exige S with it.

Ideally I would like to own both but I can't afford that right now, and my STi makes for a great 2nd car also.

mamoroso

I cannot fit in an Elise or an Exige properly but I have driven them and they are up there in my own personal idea of a great car.

340Elise

They are a pain in the rear to get in and out of, although you get very good at it and build up the right muscles to do it elegantly. And if you have the top off (you can take it off on both the Elise and Exige), then it really is a piece of cake to get in the car.

How big are you, because for their size, they have a surprising amount of leg and torso room, just not a lot of hip room. I am 6'3" 240 and fit fine, but the GT3 is of course much better and not so clausterphobic.

Have you ever tried to get into the older Esprite? I literally could not get behind the wheel of it; no way. It was the first car that I could not get into; ever! Of course I would never buy one of those, especially an old one; what a horrible car.