Ran

spg993tt,

PCCB availability has been off and on I believe. I was able to order it (was the only option I really wanted on my car) and happy to see it delivered to me with the option since by the time I took delivery it was not available to order and Porsche was honouring only prior orders. If I had been even a week or so late in picking my options and finalising the order I would have not been able to pick PCCB as an option. Of course it was not entirely unavailable (just a matter of short supply) thus a persistent dealer may well have managed to get it added as an option even in a period when it is officially unavailable. This too probably varies with degrees of availability. Not sure if the current shortage is any worse than the one in Spring. Various conspiracy theories floated that the PCCB was faulty, etc. and that the temporary unavailability was Porsches attempt to fix it. I did not subscribe to these theories but, as with any theory, some people have their reasons and they may well be right.

I have no regrets whatsoever with PCCB and truly enjoy them. I really wanted it since the RS is about weight saving where possible notwithstanding all the criticisms here about its weight. I have no complaints but then I did not order any option other than Bi-Xenon lights and PCCB.

All the best with your cars. Enjoy in good health.

dylant

I am unsure of the world market, I just know thats how the cars we distributed in the US.
I think Americans are slow to pick up on the benefits of Ceramics. Audi refuses to even offer them in the US on either the RS4 or R8.
When I was in Germany training, literally ever base 911 I saw had ceramics, so I dont think it is a supply issue Sounds like it is just Porsche being arrogant. Sort of like how they refuse to put Bluetooth in the Touareg...err... Cayenne.

I dunno, I had to bend my boss over backwards to convince him to put Ceramics on a 144k Turbo for stock. BUt then again, I just wanted an excuse to put Yellow belts in a car. Ha.

Nordschleife

what you are describing is the downside of

(a). having the cheapest Porsches in the world.
(b). having a customer base that lacks patience and expects to buy a car off the floor.


there are other reasons but they are largely due to (mis)conceptions about the tastes and abilities of consumers by the manufacturer and attitudfes towards product care and liability by the consumer. In other words 'cultural differences'

R+C

Alan Smithee

Except for the shiny yellow calipers and bragging rights, "Americans" don't benefit from ceramics. They are primarily designed for repeatedly hauling cars down from 170mph+ to 30-40mph without fade on the Autobahn. Yes, those that take their cars to the track also benefit, but that's a small percentage of Porsche owners, both here and abroad.

Bob Rouleau

One more data point - hard core RS buyers who intend to drive the cars on track do not buy PCCB. They will require replacement and at TWENTY times the cost (to replace) of the racing rotors, nobody sensible wants them. For a street driven car this is probably not a big deal but to a guy who does 30-40 (or more) track days a year, PCCB are a liability.

A further consderation is the length of the warranty, in North America it is 4 years, in Europe only two as I recall. If someone wears out their iron rotors - hey it is a wear item. If you have premature wear on a ceramic that costs $8 K (each) to replace, you have an argument.

Best

Nordschleife

These boogers (sorry sometimes we have to use technical jargon) are SO expensive that they are banned from many race series.

There is a school of thought that believes that the decision to use PCCBs in the Supercup was taken on marketing rather than engineering grounds.

R+C

tocho1

Bob..."They will require replacement " would you care to expand on this? Everything will require replacement at some point, but my understanding was that ceramics will last for a long time...Or you mean that if you track the car very often the risk of breaking the rotors is higher, hence better to have steel?

Nordschleife

Would you care to redefine 'long time'?

I have documentation from Porsche AG claiming a useful life of over 100,000 kilometers for the orginal PCCBs, dated September 1999 and released at the IAA Frankfurt. This claim is risible. As you will discover if you make enquiries.

There has been a lot of development work done to improve the longevity of the rotors, whilst they are now better, they still are expensive, fragile and of uncertain durability. There are other rotors made of different material which whilst equally expensive have better longevity characteristics. These are currently being put through the German TÜV process.

The only quantifiable benefit the PCCBs offer is a reduction in unsprung weight.

R+C

tocho1

100,000km is what I heard somewhere too. Has anyone you know gone through a set of (2nd generation) PCCBs? I understand there were issues with Gen I but Gen II no showing the same problem so far?

Bob Rouleau

tocho - Robin is, as usual, correct (he knows a lot about braking systems).

Rotors are a wear item. Subjected to track use, PCCBs will wear out. Some 997 GT3 drivers are seeing some distress already. Porsche will not warrant the rotors if used on the track. Call your parts department and ask how much a single front rotor costs. You'll see that ONE rotor costs as much as you paid for the option.

On the other hand the cast iron rotors (which are standard on the car) cost about $300 US each. Yes they will wear out faster. On the other hand they are good enough for the race cars and with proper pads (did I mention that there are a lot more pad choices for non PCCB rotors?) they stop very well indeed. At a 20 to one cost ratio, the benefits of PCCB do not warrant the stupidly high replacement cost.

If unsprung weight is the goal, you can buy Brembo slotted rotors (huge ones) which are nearly as light as the PCCB and are a tiny fraction of the cost to replace. Robin will probably point out several other even more powerful braking systems which can be fitted for less than the cost of PCCB.

I hate to burst anyone's bubble, but when I see a GT3 or RS set up for track I do not expect to see PCCBs on the car. If street driven, hey, why not? It goes well with full-full-full leather, deviated stitching, carbon everything, Chrono, Nav and the Bose radio.

I think that Porschge Dealers should be required to post a large sign which states the replacement cost of a single PCCB rotor. It comes as a shock if you need to buy one and nearly a heart attack if you have to replace all four.

Best,

Bob

tocho1

thanks Bob...for the record I do have PCCBs and do track my RS (I wish I could do 40-60 days a year though! I put maybe half that if Im lucky). I must admit I have not done any extensive research nor cost-benefit analysis on the subject, but I did have PCCBs in my previous 997 (a C4S) and never had any problems (did about 20-25 track days). So far nothing to report in the RS (5 tracks days, I got the car a moneht and a half ago) except it takes longer to warm them up (guess they are bigger or Im going faster?). I do know they're very expensive to replace though. I'll let you guys kknow if they break or wear out sooner than I expect.


PS: I did have 2 very good drivers (one races a Gt3 cup car) taken me a few laps in the RS around Watkins Glen, just to see what the car can do, and both commented very positively on the brakes though.

PogueMoHone

If the ceramics show any signs of distress (I doubt the wear is instant, and is more of a gradual process), you can always take them off and put on the steel rotors. At $300 per corner that is cheap upside compared to the hit you'll take trying to sell GT3 without the ceramics.

In other words, its cheaper to buy the ceramics and replace them with steel if you are concerned about heavy track usuage (hard core?), that way you have the potential for the best of both worlds. If you want to add ceramics later...good luck!

One thing I don't understand though is the issue regarding track costs. If I am a "hard core" user then I am mentally risking the whole car on track, say $122K. If I add the ceramics (for their benefits) I am risking $130K....not a great difference!

Bob Rouleau

Colm - we can agree to differ on this. I don't think that the hard core guys around here would pay a premium for PCCB knowing that they would have to change to iron rotors. Again, I refer to a sub-set of drivers who track their cars often.

Best,

Alan Smithee

Where are all of these GT3s languishing on dealers' lots without ceramics begging to be snapped up at big discounts?

PogueMoHone

?????