340Elise

Thanks to Audi.

allegretto

Well,I don't agree with your interpretation of censorship. Failing to post data you feel is likely to be tainted and/or mislead someone hardly qualifies as censorship to me. I think really "Lambo SL Road Test" on the cover doesn't sell as well as "Porsche RS vs. Lamo SL Shoot Out". So they did what would influence sales best and then fig-leaved their way back out.

I am not clear why they didn't get another sample. Do you have the article handy? I'd be interested to see how many Porsche pages are purchased as well.

As I said, excluding tainted/suspect data hardly qualifies as dishonest. Some consider it good science. But I could construct an arguement either way.

Having owned a run-of-the-mill 430, I can tell you that from a driver's performance perspective I'd be hard-pressed to tell you where I liked the 430 better that a run-of-the-mill GT-3!

The Scud should blow the SL away however, but we'll see.

krC2S

why do people find it hard to believe that a 530 hp car is faster by only 2 seconds to a 415 hp car on a track like the ring? it should be even faster than that..driving enjoyment is something else awd kills it for me

RR

FINALLY!!....a post with some common sense.

It is obviious that both Ferrari and Lambo are trying very hard to be RS-like.

SpeedGeek

I would like to preface this by saying that after many years on various forums, I do not partake of battles on the net. I love a good debate but not a fight. I'll argue a point ad-nauseum as long as it remains civil and respectful. Everything I write is just my opinion and never meant to be disrespectful. I'm only stating this because I have seen how ugly some arguments can get on this forum.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist, so when I read articles in reputable car rags I assume they're being honest and not favoring one brand over another for business reasons. If you have actual proof to the contrary, that's different.

I have the mag in front of me. Flipping through it shows one single page Lambo ad. There's also a double page Porsche ad. The cover has the new M3 as prominent. Plus a Honda. This issue has a Lambo vs Lambo shootout inside with a small pic of that on the cover. No mention on the cover of the SL/RS shootout. And in that SL/RS article they state that the RS is their "reigning Road and Track Car of the Year." I see no proof of your conspiracy theory here.

Regarding good science, during my college years we were required to fully document all experiments regardless of outcome. An unexpected result required some thoughtful hypotheses as to possible reasons, plus a re-do if possible. But completely disregarding an experiment because of an unexpected results is not good science. This is not the same as disregarding a few stray data points in an honest attempt to arrive at an accurate conclusion, which is good science. So if many other shootouts provide very different results to this Evo one, it would make sense to assume this one is wrong. But not printing it at all is cencorship IMO.

Regarding the F430 vs. GT3, I agree with you. Yet my brother, who owned a GT3, is now totally in love with his Ferrari. Not that he can run away from my 996 RS, BTW.

I'm a GT3 addict. I think it's the greatest sports car ever, particularly as it also doubles as a reasonable daily driver. But I seriously don't expect it to outpace the awesome Lambo SL.

Carrera GT fan

GT3 vs SL???
Apples vs Oranges
Wait for the GT2!

eclou

Now according to the savants at C&D the new king of the track is the 08 SRT Viper. They lapped one even faster than the Z06 at VIR. 600HP for 90k

RR

And on and on and on.
No matter how much quicker the SL is, it won't be more successful and therefore valuable than the RS, IMO.
Lambo only wishes they were in Porsche's position right now. Try to go out and find an RS, you can't. SL's are easy to come by - and there's nothing that 2 seconds, or even 530hp can do about that.

TraqGear

I drove a 04 Gallardo before I purchased the RS and chose the RS. However, I was very impressed with the performance of the Lcar and if you like attention, you'll have plenty. As I understand it, the Gallardo will be easier and less expensive to maintain than its Lambo's previous entries. I could see myself having both cars in the ole' garage. Both are impressive in their own ways. With that much HP and torque, of course the Lambo will be faster. I sincerely doubt, at this time anyway, that the Gallardo can take the punishment dished out at the track in the way my Pcar can without major cash outlay.

SpeedGeek

>> Lambo only wishes they were in Porsche's position right now.

I think they would prefer to be in Ferrari's position - exclusive cars that are very expensive and maintain their aftermarket value for many years.

Audi will use the R8 to compete with Porsche, not the Gallardo. And from what I understand, the R8 is seriously good as an everyday supercar.



>> GT3 vs SL???
>> Apples vs Oranges
>> Wait for the GT2!

I agree.

allegretto

I'm certainly not interested in argument either. And while I have been sharp from time to time, I avoid trying to nullify a person's point of view even if I don't agree, so long as they are reasonable and are actually interested in sharing opinion.

Well, I still run trials in rigorous scientific fashion all the time. I think at this point we are talking about two different things. It is of course proper to record all data and analyse it. But I think you mis-state my posistion when you appear to imply that I would advocate for disgarding data due to unexpected outcomes. That would be antithetical to science and I would never be prone to do that. Some of the best "discoveries" come in just such fashion. So if, for example, we were testing some device or process and it either performed far better or worse than expected, and we had reason to believe that it was a representitve sample of the device or process then an hypothesis can be confirmed or denied.

OTOH, if we have reason to suspect that the sample or testing paradigm was flawed, then we still record the data, but are careful not to act upon said data until we can confirm or deny our suspicions. One does not slavishly follow data alone, one must analyse the analysis itself. So I don't completely disagree with your POV, I just want to be clear that data must be interpreted, not worshipped and suspect data must remain...well, suspect. To not adhere to this thinking is not scientific, and this is not censorship, it's merely good science. And I would not expect a serious researcher (and BTW, car rags are NOT serious research) to attempt to publish suspect data. Suprising but valid data, certainly deserves the light of day however. But if your definition of "censorship" is the rejection of possibly flawed data for publication, then I would tell you that such censorship is absolutely the "rule" for respected scientific journals. Nature, Science, NEJM and so on, reject literally thousands of manuscripts a year for just such reasons. In fact, no serious researcher would even try to submit a caveat-ridden paper for publication. It would be rejected immediately.

I also think you overstate my POV on "conspiracy theory". A book came out not so long ago written by some of the fellows that wowrked @ C&D back in the 60's and 70's. They admit that the articles tested "ringers' and that the mags were very sensitive to the wishes of the advertisers. Perhaps EVO is immune, perhaps not. I don't know really.

Since you have the mag and I do not (just perused it while waiting for my wife at the salon) can you confirm or deny my impression that they all but told the reader to disregrd the RS data since it appeared to them that this was not a representitve sample?

Nordschleife

I have worked with several reputable car magazines recently. Since I have done this I only look at the pictures.

R+C

eclou

SpeedGeek

Nothing quite that severe. Here's an excerpt:

The RS's best lap doesn't look good compared with the SL's. At 1:24:20 it's 2.4 secs slower. It's 0.8 secs slower than the regular GT3 too - it never seemed to find quite the balance, front to rear, that the amazingly neutral and tidy GT3 did. Maybe the hot day played a part.
..... However you cut it, this battle goes to the SL. This won't be their last encounter, though. I predict a resumption of hostilities at this year's Car of the Year contest, and a much closer fight.


Earlier in the article is this:

I can't help thinking that the RS might find that its role today is one of lending perspective. It's a brilliant driver's car - tactile, intoxicating, stupendously fast and exceptionally well rounded, and we rate it very highly on both road and track, which is why it's our reigning RaTCoty champion. Yet the chances are that it's going to come off second best in this simple time challenge. The reasons are twofold. First, as we discovered in Wales, the SL is astonishingly quick over any type of road. It doesn't appear to understeer or oversteer, it just turns in and scythes through corners with total grip and traction. Second, the fastest Gallardo around the West Circuit so far is the 06 model which recorded 1:22:80 - over half a sec faster than the 'cooking' 997 GT3. And the SL is more significantly enhanced vs. the regular Gallardo than the RS is vs. the regular GT3.



Regarding car mags, they are indeed not scientific publications. And they are businesses that must make money. And their editors will be biased towards certain brands as we all are. But they do have reputations to uphold and I think they are more sensitive to that now than they were back in the day. I don't take their word as the absolute truth, but to me it's obvious that the SL should be faster than the RS anyway.

Speaking of ringers, the first F430 tested by R&T back in 2004 ran 3.5 secs to 60 mph. They were surprised and even redid the test using different timing gear, with the same amazing result. I've not since seen such a result from a F430.

pcar964

I have, and they're almost always driven by people who are lucky to have 4wd and traction control. They blast down the straights, then blunder through the corners. Very annoying.

Then again, maybe the average SL driver would be different.