997 GT3/GT3 RS Weight Thread
02-14-2007, 10:08 PM
#46
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Also, people are quoting big numbers for the sunroof delete. I don't believe. Based on sunroof deletes in the bmw world, weights were more on the order of 20 to 25 lbs. I'll probably do it though, just because.
02-14-2007, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by frayed
That's fine. You have a lot more time in these cars than I ever will. I'm going based on what I felt behind the wheel, what I see at the track, and based on comparative testing. It's hard for me to get excited about the car.
They should KILL the coxster and boxster. They are, after all, no holds barred track toys. They have no redeeming features for street use. For such a singular purpose machine, they underdeliver. They should be notably faster than the pcars, or if not faster, easier to explore the limits. They are neither.
They should KILL the coxster and boxster. They are, after all, no holds barred track toys. They have no redeeming features for street use. For such a singular purpose machine, they underdeliver. They should be notably faster than the pcars, or if not faster, easier to explore the limits. They are neither.
it's more likely to see higher hp cars go faster on the track with average drivers
but i am sure you can carry more speed into corners with 600-700 lbs less
as TerryL mentioned a lighter car that can change direction quickly could spin easier but it can also turn in quicker that's a good thing for a good driver
02-14-2007, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by frayed
Also, people are quoting big numbers for the sunroof delete. I don't believe. Based on sunroof deletes in the bmw world, weights were more on the order of 20 to 25 lbs. I'll probably do it though, just because.
02-14-2007, 10:52 PM
#52
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Originally Posted by frayed
Herman,
Complicated question. I could go on and on about the qualities that make a great car IMHO, a car that not only (i) is greater than the sum of its parts, but also (ii) goads you to explore its limits. Within its price/intent category, it should be exciting to drive and when you park it, make you look backwards as you walk away.
I think the loti are bug like and sort of ricey. I can forgive that. The new GT3 is too, just better executed. I cannot forgive the chassis which isn't that tractable. Even the euro press complain about having to drive the car tight b/c the car wants to go *** backwards. On the local tracks around here they are spinners. Loose is fun, and the Lotus isn't a car that likes loose. Like first Gen S2000s. Cars that are a PITA to drive don't qualify in my book. The 996 GT3 can be unforgiving, but it always told you WTF was going on. If you ignore what it tells you and you go off into the pebbles, its your fault.
But, IMO, what really kills the lotus is the motor. It really needs a Honda motor. Honda is *the* motor company. Drive a Type R or an S2000. Very visceral, responsive, connected motors. But Honda refused to do the deal with Lotus, so we are stuck with the Toyota motor, which is as enticing to listen to as a can full of nails shaken by my 3 y/o son.
What also kills the loti is that the hairdresser's porsche, the boxster, and the androgenous coxster, are comparatively bloated cars, inferior on paper but they kick the loti's azz on track. This is disappointing. Very disappointing. The loti were built for the track and when a far heavier, inferior hp/weight ratio, lux coxster kicks its azz, it is NOT a great car.
In the end, I won't end up in my garage b/c they are not greater than the sum of their parts and underdeliver on their promise.
Complicated question. I could go on and on about the qualities that make a great car IMHO, a car that not only (i) is greater than the sum of its parts, but also (ii) goads you to explore its limits. Within its price/intent category, it should be exciting to drive and when you park it, make you look backwards as you walk away.
I think the loti are bug like and sort of ricey. I can forgive that. The new GT3 is too, just better executed. I cannot forgive the chassis which isn't that tractable. Even the euro press complain about having to drive the car tight b/c the car wants to go *** backwards. On the local tracks around here they are spinners. Loose is fun, and the Lotus isn't a car that likes loose. Like first Gen S2000s. Cars that are a PITA to drive don't qualify in my book. The 996 GT3 can be unforgiving, but it always told you WTF was going on. If you ignore what it tells you and you go off into the pebbles, its your fault.
But, IMO, what really kills the lotus is the motor. It really needs a Honda motor. Honda is *the* motor company. Drive a Type R or an S2000. Very visceral, responsive, connected motors. But Honda refused to do the deal with Lotus, so we are stuck with the Toyota motor, which is as enticing to listen to as a can full of nails shaken by my 3 y/o son.
What also kills the loti is that the hairdresser's porsche, the boxster, and the androgenous coxster, are comparatively bloated cars, inferior on paper but they kick the loti's azz on track. This is disappointing. Very disappointing. The loti were built for the track and when a far heavier, inferior hp/weight ratio, lux coxster kicks its azz, it is NOT a great car.
In the end, I won't end up in my garage b/c they are not greater than the sum of their parts and underdeliver on their promise.
However, this mostly relative to the kind of weekend track-day tracks we have in the US. What matters most above 90-100mph+ is total horsepower rather than mass. Almost any 300hp+ Sportscar can overcome in the long straights the corner speed adavantage of the Lotus. Most of the tracks that we have are +/- 90mph of average speed and there the Exieg/Elise is at a disadvantage.
Go to any other track that has an aaverage lap speed of the around 70-75mph and you will notice the Elise/Exige is a giant slayer. Those are the type of tracks that are found plenty in the UK, Europe and the rest of the World.
02-14-2007, 11:04 PM
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For Europeans, how about a 510 HP supercharged M3 CSL, with big brakes and motons? It has faster lap times (a supercharged ESS CSL is about 7.30 at the Ring and is going for the record), costs less, weighs less, ultra stealthy, and it is much more practical. It even makes a perfect noise.
02-14-2007, 11:26 PM
#55
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Originally Posted by gete3
...how about a 510 HP supercharged M3 CSL...it is much more practical.
02-14-2007, 11:33 PM
#56
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Originally Posted by frayed
Also, people are quoting big numbers for the sunroof delete. I don't believe. Based on sunroof deletes in the bmw world, weights were more on the order of 20 to 25 lbs. I'll probably do it though, just because.
02-15-2007, 02:16 AM
#57
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Originally Posted by cgomez
I own both Lotus and Porsche, and the Lotus is the most fun at the track and the most rewarding despite being slower in lap times.
Originally Posted by cgomez
Most of the tracks that we have are +/- 90mph of average speed and there the Exieg/Elise is at a disadvantage.
02-15-2007, 02:24 AM
#58
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Originally Posted by frayed
Even the euro press complain about having to drive the car tight b/c the car wants to go *** backwards. On the local tracks around here they are spinners. Loose is fun, and the Lotus isn't a car that likes loose. Like first Gen S2000s.
btw, i was pushing my lotus very hard the first two days out. it doesn't spin that easily. in fact, it's as stable if not more so than my cays. again, alignment, tire choices are key.
yes, honda motor would be a bit better than 2ZZ's, though 2ZZ isn't bad, better than i imagined.
go drive the lotus, at low rpm, s2k sounds better, at high rpm, 2ZZ sounds way better than s2k. i drove both my s2k (stock) and exige (stock) at LS. i like the sound of 2zz at 6k above.
inferior hp/weight ratio, lux coxster kicks its azz, it is NOT a great car.
_____________
you sure?
i dont think 987 or cayman will catch exige, elise.
987s and cayman s, yes.
btw, it is NOT a great car. it is a great toy for track however.
btw, in a borrowed exige S, taking is sort of easy, i was 7 seconds off a very well driven 996gt3 at laguna (BIG hp track). if it were my own car, i would push it harder and may get to 4-5 seconds, that's not shabby for a 65k car. oh, the GT3 driver was way way better than myself, he clocked 1:38 at LS i was told.
02-15-2007, 02:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Alan Smithee
I wouldn't consider a motor teetering on the brink of destruction remotely practical...and the package you described would cost more than a 997GT3.
The total cost for a 510 HP CSL with upgraded brakes and suspension is about 71,000 euro.
ESS supercharger 9115 euros
Brakes and suspension about 11,000 euro
2003 CSL about 50,000
http://www.esstuning.com/default.asp...subcat2=142&id
2003 M3 CSL VT2 5.5PSI Supercharger System (108-97)
Featuring the highly efficient and reliable Vortech V2SQ supercharger unit combined with the new ESS LiquaFlow high capacity liquid intercooler manifold system with front mounted heat exchanger and ice expansion system for superior discharge temperature reduction and optimal power development under all conditions.
The redesigned ESS MSS54 engine control software is perfectly calibrated for the supercharged engine providing optimum ignition timing under all conditions, recalibrated EGas for quicker throttle response, recalibrated VANOS control and perfectly optimized fuel delivery supplied by 6 larger Bosch injection valves included with the kit. We have spent countless hours developing and testing the new S54 VT2 system and the end result is a product we are extremely proud of.
The CSL drives and feels just like an original CSL until you step on the accelerator.. Then you will be completely chocked by the acceleration the supercharged CSL provides.
The system maintains all OBD-II functions and it is backed by a comprehensive 2 year, unlimited mileage warranty program. The system installs in 8-10 hours using normal hand tools and no irreversible modifications to the car is necessary.
System components:
-Vortech V2SQ supercharger unit.
-High capacity ESS LiquaFlow intercooler manifold system.
-Uni-belt with additional OEM quality rollers.
-6 larger Bosch fuel injectors.
-Perfectly optimized, dyno tweaked ECU software.
-CNC hard anodized brackets and hardware.
-K&N high flow air filter.
-Discharge and intake assemblies made from 304 stainless steel.
-High temperature silicone hoses with clamps
-Detailed, step-by-step installation manual + CD.
-Heavy-Duty drive belt.
-3 way, fume reduction oil breather assembly designed for boost.
-All installation hardware included
-2yr./unlimited mileage warranty.
Part number: 108-97
Boost pressure: 6.5 PSI
Horsepower: 510 DIN (Stock 360)
Torque: 480 NM (Stock 370)
Installation time : 12-16 hours
Price: USD 11995/EUR 9115
02-15-2007, 02:32 AM
#60
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Originally Posted by Terry L
Frayed newest post is just wrong, IMHO. Yes, you can spin these cars pretty easily but that is a function of their ability to change direction suddenly, which is a good thing....
RA1 205 and 245
A043 stock size
both i run high 1:47's at my best lap.
and yes, the car turns in faster than anything i have tried, short of open wheels. i had throttle planted and it was stable.