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997.1 GT3 -- Good looking car but no service history
As title states: I'm looking at a 997.1 GT3 that looks very clean; sub 30k miles, 650 engine hours; 34 category 1 overrevs but otherwise no overrevs in any other category. Three owner car.
The issue (potential issue) is that there is no maintenance history on the Carfax for the past owner who owned it for 10 years. The dealer selling the car also has no service records for the car. The car otherwise looks good but unsure about buying a car like this without any service history for the last 10 years. Car has Sharkwerks coolant tubes (just two of them) put in, and side muffler delete. Otherwise the car is stock.
On the 997 GT3, there's only 2 Sharkwerks coolant lines that you'd have installed. Those are for the oil cooler. The rest of the lines should have been pinned or welded when this was done. You'll be able to see this when looking into the engine bay. If you need help, let us know.
Regarding no service records, while that isn't ideal, the cars are relatively solid. Ideally, you see service records, you're buying from a reputable seller and you can look at the car yourself. All of those are not likely to happen. I'd check if a Rennlist member can look at the car. I'd get a PPI with the understanding that PPI's are not the end all be all. I'd then fly out and inspect the car and buy it after that inspection if everything checks out and looks good.
If you're concerned with the engine, get a compression and leakdown test.
Regarding trying to find the PO, I'd search the local digital PCA magazines, see if you can find anyone with that car in there.
If it seems clean go for it. There arent many major mileage or time based service items like timing belts that you can't see with a PPI. Change the fluids and plugs and enjoy!
On the 997 GT3, there's only 2 Sharkwerks coolant lines that you'd have installed. Those are for the oil cooler. The rest of the lines should have been pinned or welded when this was done. You'll be able to see this when looking into the engine bay. If you need help, let us know.
Regarding no service records, while that isn't ideal, the cars are relatively solid. Ideally, you see service records, you're buying from a reputable seller and you can look at the car yourself. All of those are not likely to happen. I'd check if a Rennlist member can look at the car. I'd get a PPI with the understanding that PPI's are not the end all be all. I'd then fly out and inspect the car and buy it after that inspection if everything checks out and looks good.
If you're concerned with the engine, get a compression and leakdown test.
Regarding trying to find the PO, I'd search the local digital PCA magazines, see if you can find anyone with that car in there.
Best of luck.
Thanks very much. I was fairly handy with my 987 but I don't intimately know my way around the Metzger. Do you happen to have a picture of what I would be looking for when I open the engine bay that would allow me to verify whether coolant lines were pinned?
Here's a pic of the OEM coolant tubes that were removed (and which come with the car, along with the two side mufflers).
On the 997 GT3, there's only 2 Sharkwerks coolant lines that you'd have installed. Those are for the oil cooler. The rest of the lines should have been pinned or welded when this was done. You'll be able to see this when looking into the engine bay. If you need help, let us know.
Regarding no service records, while that isn't ideal, the cars are relatively solid. Ideally, you see service records, you're buying from a reputable seller and you can look at the car yourself. All of those are not likely to happen. I'd check if a Rennlist member can look at the car. I'd get a PPI with the understanding that PPI's are not the end all be all. I'd then fly out and inspect the car and buy it after that inspection if everything checks out and looks good.
If you're concerned with the engine, get a compression and leakdown test.
Regarding trying to find the PO, I'd search the local digital PCA magazines, see if you can find anyone with that car in there.
Best of luck.
Also I'm about an hour away from this one, and will be checking it out early next week.
Thanks very much. I was fairly handy with my 987 but I don't intimately know my way around the Metzger. Do you happen to have a picture of what I would be looking for when I open the engine bay that would allow me to verify whether coolant lines were pinned?
Here's a pic of the OEM coolant tubes that were removed (and which come with the car, along with the two side mufflers).
Another question while I have the collective wisdom here: (1) does pinned lines always necessarily means the engine came out? (2) assuming lines on the one I'm looking at were not pinned, how much is the job to do it?
Another question while I have the collective wisdom here: (1) does pinned lines always necessarily means the engine came out? (2) assuming lines on the one I'm looking at were not pinned, how much is the job to do it?
For a 997 GT3, no, the engine does not need to come out to pin the lines. However, to install the Sharkwerks elbows, which yours has, the engine needs to come out.
I paid around $2500+ the Sharkwerks elbows from a speciality Porsche shop in Ohio in 2020. Most are going to tell you it’s closer to $4-5k now. Then add in the price of the other “while you’re in there” items that you should do, like all coolant hoses, the expansion tank, water pump, thermostat etc. I’d say it’s very unlikely someone replaced the elbows without pinning or welding the lines. If lines are welded, right at the end of the rubber hose, you’ll notice welding lines. For reference, when I asked my local dealer for a price in 2020, they said $4k and that was their “winter rate”.
For a 997 GT3, no, the engine does not need to come out to pin the lines. However, to install the Sharkwerks elbows, which yours has, the engine needs to come out.
I paid around $2500+ the Sharkwerks elbows from a speciality Porsche shop in Ohio in 2020. Most are going to tell you it’s closer to $4-5k now. Then add in the price of the other “while you’re in there” items that you should do, like all coolant hoses, the expansion tank, water pump, thermostat etc. I’d say it’s very unlikely someone replaced the elbows without pinning or welding the lines. If lines are welded, right at the end of the rubber hose, you’ll notice welding lines. For reference, when I asked my local dealer for a price in 2020, they said $4k and that was their “winter rate”.
Got it. So the engine on this car has been out before. (I'm not sure how much that reassures me given the absence of service history records).
If the lines can be pinned w/o engine out but Sharkwerks elbows require engine out, what is the benefit of having the Sharkwerks elbows over just pinning the lines w/o taking the engine out? There's obviously a benefit otherwise people would just pin the lines and Sharkwerks wouldn't even make an elbow, I'm just not aware what that is.
One more level of abstraction: given the PO installed Sharkwerks elbows/had engine pulled, what does that say (or not say) about the type of owner they were, if anything? Would you say this means more likely the car was tracked? It certainly doesn't "look" like it was tracked and the DME report is very favorable.
Got it. So the engine on this car has been out before. (I'm not sure how much that reassures me given the absence of service history records).
If the lines can be pinned w/o engine out but Sharkwerks elbows require engine out, what is the benefit of having the Sharkwerks elbows over just pinning the lines w/o taking the engine out? There's obviously a benefit otherwise people would just pin the lines and Sharkwerks wouldn't even make an elbow, I'm just not aware what that is.
One more level of abstraction: given the PO installed Sharkwerks elbows/had engine pulled, what does that say (or not say) about the type of owner they were, if anything? Would you say this means more likely the car was tracked? It certainly doesn't "look" like it was tracked and the DME report is very favorable.
The plastic elbows are known to crack, the fact those were done is great. The normal coolant line issue and pinning/welding those is because the coolant lines are glued in and the glue fails over time. The coolant lines then eject themselves when the glue fails.
I had my coolant lines pinned 6 months after I got my car and my car has not seen the track under my ownership (and I don’t believe much if at all with prior owners after I’ve spoken with prior owners). I over maintain my cars, in general, so I tend to buy a car and then try and sort all of the known weak points, especially safety related ones. Sure, many tracks require coolant lines to be pinned, so one could say that someone pinning coolant lines is because they’re going to use it on track but I wouldn’t make that connection. A friend pinned his coolant lines, anticipating to go to the track and then never ended up going and sold the car. Also, you can’t really correlate DME and track use. Redline on this car is 8400 RPM. Range 1 is 9k. You can easily downshift a bit early on the street and get a range 1. Or, you can easily never downshift early on the track and never get a range 1. I’d look under the car, see if there’s ***** of rubber. That could indicate track use. I’d say if the car has harnesses, it’d be more likely to be used on track.
I also wouldn’t overthink the tracking aspect. A large percentage of these cars were tracked and most aren’t really any worse for it—it’s what they were designed from the onset to do. What you generally want to avoid is cars that were either abused or just sat and weren’t really driven. Either case is likely going to cost some money to remedy.
I also wouldn’t overthink the tracking aspect. A large percentage of these cars were tracked and most aren’t really any worse for it—it’s what they were designed from the onset to do. What you generally want to avoid is cars that were either abused or just sat and weren’t really driven. Either case is likely going to cost some money to remedy.
Fair points. This car did about 1700 miles a year which is very decent. Just want to make sure I’m getting good stock and not stuck with a money pit.
The plastic elbows are known to crack, the fact those were done is great. The normal coolant line issue and pinning/welding those is because the coolant lines are glued in and the glue fails over time. The coolant lines then eject themselves when the glue fails.
I had my coolant lines pinned 6 months after I got my car and my car has not seen the track under my ownership (and I don’t believe much if at all with prior owners after I’ve spoken with prior owners). I over maintain my cars, in general, so I tend to buy a car and then try and sort all of the known weak points, especially safety related ones. Sure, many tracks require coolant lines to be pinned, so one could say that someone pinning coolant lines is because they’re going to use it on track but I wouldn’t make that connection. A friend pinned his coolant lines, anticipating to go to the track and then never ended up going and sold the car. Also, you can’t really correlate DME and track use. Redline on this car is 8400 RPM. Range 1 is 9k. You can easily downshift a bit early on the street and get a range 1. Or, you can easily never downshift early on the track and never get a range 1. I’d look under the car, see if there’s ***** of rubber. That could indicate track use. I’d say if the car has harnesses, it’d be more likely to be used on track.
all good points. Thanks. I’m going to see it next week so I’ll update the thread and let you guys know how it shakes out. If there’s anything else you think I should be looking for/at, please let me know and I’ll add to my list.
05-25-2023, 06:47 PM
997.1 GT3 -- Good looking car but no service history
