Misdirection

Random item of interest: When I swapped my ventilated seats out, I weighed them and they were somewhere between 60 and 70 pounds each.

Cloudspin

[QUOTE=Our 911s are porkers... no reason for it other than Porsche doesn't care and wants to cater to the higher volume poser market.
[/QUOTE]

Having gone off track at over 110 mph and hitting a solid concrete wall (not a moveable concrete barrier) nearly head on at 90+ mph, the force of which flung my 997.1 GT3 back across the track and well off the other side of said track, I have to take issue with the comments and conclusions expressed above. 10 - 15 seconds after coming to rest after the impact and realizing I was ok (but thinking my wife was going to kill me), I undid my belts, opened the door and got out. The front crush structure did its job - both doors worked, the windshield was intact and I walked back to the pits. It turned out the impact was significant enough to bend the unit body, totaling the car, but the driver / passenger compartment was completely intact and operational.

Although a significant percentage of Porsche owners never use their cars in ways that warrant that degree of structural strength and integrity, I can confidently say, after at least a few hundred track days over the past 25 years, that lots and lots of people do. If, and when, things go south, they are damn thankful that Porsche builds 911s the way they do to not to satisfy posers, because they don't care or because of imposing governmental agencies, but because decades of successful racing experience drives the design criteria.

And Lotus....well they have been pioneering light weight construction for ovar 50 years and if you followed racing back then or read about those days now, a number of drivers paid the ultimate price due to that pursuit. Current models due handle exceedingly well if you are under 5'8" tall but I've seen a few of them after impacts and...well, I'd much rather be in a P-car.

ADias

No poseur here. I am all for strong cockpit designs. Beyond that there 's a slew of government mandates that make no sense. I am glad you survived your crash, but I suspect that the impact velocity was far less than 90MPH.

Cloudspin

Suspicion based on what?

Bruce In Philly

But a lighter car is less energy to absorb no? I still believe the car can be lightened without touching its structural integrity.... those crazy heavy seats for example..... the size of the car ...... there are more.

My Boxster S was sub 3K pounds... was it less safe because of this? (BTW: the Boxster and 911 of those years had the exact same front ends.. chassis et al.)

Peace
Bruce in Philly

Cloudspin

I'm too far removed, age wise, from my last physics class to do the math on the lighter car = less energy to absorb calc, but I'd guess velocity would be a bigger factor than a couple hundred pounds but it is just a guess. Options add weight of course but they are options right? One doesn't have to have nav, ventilated seats, PDK (in my case) Bose subwoofers, etc. I had my GTS corner balanced a few weeks ago at Champion Motorsport. I told them I was 260 with helmet and HANS. Assuming they could find enough sand bags to equal 260 lbs (maybe have the receptionist climb in if they didn't have enough sand), my car came in at 3,435 with 1/4 tank of fuel, so 3,175 without me. Weight adding options included in that number are the GTS WB, 12-way, heated / ventilated full leather comfort passenger seat, PDK, Bose, NAV, RSS roll bar, 6-point harness, Getty aero and I suppose full leather adds some weight. Weight saving mods are an OMP HTE-R drivers seat, rear seats are gone, Girodisc floating rotors, FVD headers and 200 cell cats (which replace the OEM center muffler) and it was balanced with my 18" CCW track wheels on it which are quite a bit lighter than the 19" OEM. 3,175 isn't ridiculously heavier than a 997.2 Cup car but it is a whole lot more comfortable on the road obviously.

I don't remember what my 996 weighed although there were significant periods when it was very light due to 3 blown motors. You lived the M96 deal too I believe. Was your Boxster S significantly less than 3k?

ADias

I do not think you would have survived a 90MPH crash against a solid wall, according to crash stats. Somehow your car slowed down enough to reduce the impact g-forces on your body.

Cloudspin

You are entitled to think whatever you like. Data acquisition systems don't rely on opinion.

ADias

Data acquisition systems can be wrong. No one survives a 90MPH crash against a solid well, crash zone absorption notwithstanding.

https://www.wired.com/2011/04/crashing-into-wall/

alexisthemovie

It should be mentioned that the only model we can get in the US is the Evora which weighs the same as my 997 C2S.

Anyways, I don't really see the point in this discussion. We have GT cars and there is a ton of weight reduction you can do if you want it to feel more sporty.

Cloudspin

^Agree.

Alexandrius

To say no one survives a 90mph crash into a wall, crash zone absorption notwithstanding, is a pointless thing to say honestly.

There are tons of variables that even that author mentioned he couldn't quantify reliably enough to take into account; think seats flexing, seatbelt flexing, dash absorbing the impact of the person, airbag absorbing impact of person, etc. etc. etc.

The G forces on a rock thrown at a rock are different than a soft spongy human inside of a car with various different materials all working in harmony. TONS of people have survived very high speed crashes into fairly solid walls in street Porsches.

Cloudspin

Yes they have and I thankfully am one of them irrespective of adias's baseless opinion. I wasn't going to respond to his post but changed my mind after seeing yours. Car had the Porsche roll bar, Porsche "elephant ear" race seats and Schroth 6-point harness. Personal safety equipment included Bell M-4 helmet and HANS Sport II head and neck restraint. There is little doubt I would be dead or paralyzed without the HANS but then again I wouldn't have been on track without it.

From the moment I lost the rear I remember recognizing it was gone and that it was going to be bad and then wham! Corner worker said that after impact the car "flew" back across the track and came to rest about 15' off the other side. Thankfully no one was immediately behind me. The impact was just slightly to the right of completely head on. The wall is approximately 15' of (wet that day) grass from the edge of the track.

Airbags deployed (I have a Durametric Pro but I hadn't disabled them). I'm 6'2" so the seat was far enough back that with my harness tightly fastened the deployed airbag didn't contact me. I was in shock but didn't know it. I had pain in my upper right chest area where my HANS had sort of dug in but that was all. I undid my belts and waited for the corner worker to signal I could get out of the car. He red flagged the session and I was getting out when the medical crew arrived and asked if I was ok. I said "I think so but she's going to kill me". They laughed and asked if I wanted to go to the ER and I said no. I walked back to the pits which was AMAZINGLY stupid but I was in a state of shock and wasn't aware. It would have been better if they or the organizer had insisted I get in the ambulance but in the end we are all responsible for our own safety at these events and I don't fault anyone but myself.

My wife arrived 90 minutes later and insisted on a trip to the ER. It was a Saturday and the ER was jammed. X-rays were negative and they ordered a CT scan. After 4 hours of waiting for it though I said f-this and went home. Five days later I had a persistent low level headache and nausea so I went to my local ER and had the scan done. Results didn't show any damage and diagnosis was post concussion syndrome which should go away in a day or two, come back if it doesn't. It did, I was fine and 10 days later I was back at a different track in a C2S a little wiser and eternally grateful that Porsche builds cars the way they do. Heavy though they may be, lol.

Bruce In Philly

Wow, good outcome......

I always suspected these cars were good in crashes but I am unaware of good data out there.

Peace
Bruce in Philly

ATSR

I need to find a place to weigh my car as it is one of those no-option cars you are referring to. As you said, my car does have a sunroof, but it doesn't have electric seats, Bose radio, dynamic cornering lights, navigation, full leather, PDK, sport chrono, etc. The only option that came from the factory was the 19" wheels that I replaced with 18s. I also saved a few pounds with the center muffler bypass.

I'm curious to see if the horsepower per pound figure will be similar (or better) than an S with all the typical options that most have. Will post the result as soon as I get it.