Do you need a PPI for a CPO 997.2? Yes.
08-12-2016, 12:26 PM
#16
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I had good luck calling Porsche NA in Georgia. Give that a try, and be nice. They will want proof of ownership... you probably will have to PDF them the bill of sale or whatever as I did. The Porsche computers, as of a few years ago, were not integrated.
Clutch wear and opinions are full of emotions as it gets to "knowing how to drive", and folks can be massively defensive so.... you just don't know how the car was driven.
Give Porsche NA a call.... in years past when the economy was cooking and Porsche could not produce cars fast enough, Porsche NA held massive sway with dealers as they were given "allocations" and customer satisfaction played into this..... at least that is what I heard at the time.
FWIW, I got 197K miles on my original Boxster S clutch.... I have no idea how long it would have lasted as the car died... it is all in rev matching.
Peace
Bruce in Philly
Clutch wear and opinions are full of emotions as it gets to "knowing how to drive", and folks can be massively defensive so.... you just don't know how the car was driven.
Give Porsche NA a call.... in years past when the economy was cooking and Porsche could not produce cars fast enough, Porsche NA held massive sway with dealers as they were given "allocations" and customer satisfaction played into this..... at least that is what I heard at the time.
FWIW, I got 197K miles on my original Boxster S clutch.... I have no idea how long it would have lasted as the car died... it is all in rev matching.
Peace
Bruce in Philly
08-12-2016, 12:48 PM
#17
Did you get a copy of the DME report (CPO eligibility would have required they run one)? Not that it correlates directly to clutch abuse, it might have given you insight into the car's owner's driving style.
08-12-2016, 01:02 PM
#18
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Had a very similar issue with my 07 C2s Cab 5 years ago. Clutch was heavy, then failed about 500 miles later. needed a $4K replacement at 25K miles (Obviously more than just clutch plates). I have always driven manuals, many for over 100K miles, and never had a failure, so I was not happy. But, I sucked it up, and now, 5 years later, I'm still thrilled with the car.
08-12-2016, 03:38 PM
#20
Interesting but neither here nor there, my '08 C2S had the heaviest clutch of any car I've ever driven. Bought it with 26k and traded it in with 35k for a brand new E92 M3 . They tried to lowball me on the trade in because "Porsche recommends the clutch be replaced at 30k", lol
08-12-2016, 04:31 PM
#21
sorry to hear that about your Porsche..
2 years ago I bought my 2010 CPO 4s from Champion Porsche
I asked for all service records including warranty repairs.
I looked over the service history, read the 111 point inspection. noted the tech put measurements and not simply green yellow red on brake pads etc.
Checked Carfax, had them touch up a few scratches I noticed on new pictures I had them take and shipped the vehicle all sight unseen.
The vehicle arrived in perfect shape (drity from transportation from FL to WA at the time). I was missing one piece which covered the winshield wipers.. I was also missing the wheel lock. (They put brand new tires on it, 22k miles and forgot to put the lock back.)
They shipped my the missing part and purchased wheel lock for me from the local Pcar dealership.
I had a great experience... I would trust that dealership again with all the paywork I looked over and their honesty taking pictures of defects.
2 years ago I bought my 2010 CPO 4s from Champion Porsche
I asked for all service records including warranty repairs.
I looked over the service history, read the 111 point inspection. noted the tech put measurements and not simply green yellow red on brake pads etc.
Checked Carfax, had them touch up a few scratches I noticed on new pictures I had them take and shipped the vehicle all sight unseen.
The vehicle arrived in perfect shape (drity from transportation from FL to WA at the time). I was missing one piece which covered the winshield wipers.. I was also missing the wheel lock. (They put brand new tires on it, 22k miles and forgot to put the lock back.)
They shipped my the missing part and purchased wheel lock for me from the local Pcar dealership.
I had a great experience... I would trust that dealership again with all the paywork I looked over and their honesty taking pictures of defects.
08-12-2016, 05:02 PM
#22
I may be offering and opposing and/or unpopular view, but here it goes anyway...
I'm not sure a PPI or a CPO or a "Rennfax" or even you flying out there and driving the car yourself would have changed anything. And furthermore, I'm not sure you can blame the selling dealership for pulling a fast-one on you without evidence that they did so (which again, how would you ever get that evidence)? We all like to think of our cars as special--and they are to us--but in the end, they're mechanical and electrical masses that will have problems, wear, faults and issues. Some of us have no issues whatsoever, others of us have seemingly an endless stream of problems. But anytime you're buying a used car with miles on it (and sometimes even with very low miles) there's a chance something will go wrong. Murphy's law seems to be that something will happen within the first month of you owning the car too.
It is quite possible that your car passed the CPO exam with flying colors and there was no fudging. It is quite possible that a PPI would not have said your clutch is about to die. Maybe so... but maybe not. Either way, I wouldn't beat myself up over not getting a PPI nor would I jump to the immediate conclusion that the dealership was running a scam. I think the concept of PPIs are a bit overstated. I'm not saying they're useless--of course they have use--but I am saying they're not quite the insurance that some people would have you believe they are.
I recently bought a car sight unseen, but had all the reports, service history, talked with the dealer, talked with the previous owner who traded it to the dealer, and researched. I knew I was taking a risk, but it was the car I'd been looking for. After buying it, I took it in to a shop that I trust and had them do a once-over. Other than needing front brakes, which I expected after seeing the service history, it all checked out. On the way home from the inspection, my AC stopped working (I just started a thread about it actually). I mean what are the chances? Now I am waiting to see if this is a little fix or a big fix. Am I unhappy? Yes. But I don't think anyone tried to trick me, nor would this have been something a PPI or even an in person view would have caught. It was probably just bad luck.
My viewpoint on buying used cars is simple... figure out your budget and what you want. Then go and purchase something $5K under your budget. That $5K may never get used, and if not? Good for you. Use it on modifications, or save it, or anything you want. But if you do need some repairs, particularly on wear items, you set aside a little money to hopefully soften the blow. After having traveled the road of used car purchase many, many times, I just plan on needing to fix something within the first 6 mos of ownership. When I factor that in on the front end, it's a much easier pill to swallow.
I lease my "daily drivers" because I want the full warranty, service, and brand new car smell, and I want to turn the car back in and get something else right around when it might start needing something other than routine maintenance. I purchase my fun cars used. Let someone else take the depreciation hit. But with that comes a risk that you may need to fix something.
Again, maybe not the most popular viewpoint, but that's the way I see it. Still though, I feel bad this has happened. I say get the clutch fixed, find a good indy shop to do it, and enjoy the car!
I'm not sure a PPI or a CPO or a "Rennfax" or even you flying out there and driving the car yourself would have changed anything. And furthermore, I'm not sure you can blame the selling dealership for pulling a fast-one on you without evidence that they did so (which again, how would you ever get that evidence)? We all like to think of our cars as special--and they are to us--but in the end, they're mechanical and electrical masses that will have problems, wear, faults and issues. Some of us have no issues whatsoever, others of us have seemingly an endless stream of problems. But anytime you're buying a used car with miles on it (and sometimes even with very low miles) there's a chance something will go wrong. Murphy's law seems to be that something will happen within the first month of you owning the car too.
It is quite possible that your car passed the CPO exam with flying colors and there was no fudging. It is quite possible that a PPI would not have said your clutch is about to die. Maybe so... but maybe not. Either way, I wouldn't beat myself up over not getting a PPI nor would I jump to the immediate conclusion that the dealership was running a scam. I think the concept of PPIs are a bit overstated. I'm not saying they're useless--of course they have use--but I am saying they're not quite the insurance that some people would have you believe they are.
I recently bought a car sight unseen, but had all the reports, service history, talked with the dealer, talked with the previous owner who traded it to the dealer, and researched. I knew I was taking a risk, but it was the car I'd been looking for. After buying it, I took it in to a shop that I trust and had them do a once-over. Other than needing front brakes, which I expected after seeing the service history, it all checked out. On the way home from the inspection, my AC stopped working (I just started a thread about it actually). I mean what are the chances? Now I am waiting to see if this is a little fix or a big fix. Am I unhappy? Yes. But I don't think anyone tried to trick me, nor would this have been something a PPI or even an in person view would have caught. It was probably just bad luck.
My viewpoint on buying used cars is simple... figure out your budget and what you want. Then go and purchase something $5K under your budget. That $5K may never get used, and if not? Good for you. Use it on modifications, or save it, or anything you want. But if you do need some repairs, particularly on wear items, you set aside a little money to hopefully soften the blow. After having traveled the road of used car purchase many, many times, I just plan on needing to fix something within the first 6 mos of ownership. When I factor that in on the front end, it's a much easier pill to swallow.
I lease my "daily drivers" because I want the full warranty, service, and brand new car smell, and I want to turn the car back in and get something else right around when it might start needing something other than routine maintenance. I purchase my fun cars used. Let someone else take the depreciation hit. But with that comes a risk that you may need to fix something.
Again, maybe not the most popular viewpoint, but that's the way I see it. Still though, I feel bad this has happened. I say get the clutch fixed, find a good indy shop to do it, and enjoy the car!
08-12-2016, 07:36 PM
#24
Race Director
Provided the clutch is not slipping the clutch may be ok.
I believe the 997 model clutch hydraulic system shares fluid with the brake system. Confirm this and if it does before throwing a new clutch in the car have the brake and clutch fluid flushed/bled.
I can tell you even fluid that is just (just) 2.5 years can affect clutch performance/action to the point I was about to spring for a new clutch when the SM at the local dealer suggested a flush/bleed first.
I went with his recommendation and the clutch afterwards was just fine.
I believe the 997 model clutch hydraulic system shares fluid with the brake system. Confirm this and if it does before throwing a new clutch in the car have the brake and clutch fluid flushed/bled.
I can tell you even fluid that is just (just) 2.5 years can affect clutch performance/action to the point I was about to spring for a new clutch when the SM at the local dealer suggested a flush/bleed first.
I went with his recommendation and the clutch afterwards was just fine.
08-12-2016, 08:41 PM
#25
Race Car
I wish my 1st post after joining in 2004 (yes 2004 been lurking a long time) was going to be more positive but here it goes:
I finally purchased my 1st Porsche a CPO 997.2 Carrera 4, with 49k miles on it from an out of state dealer and no, I did not get a PPI. My delivery was scheduled for a Monday and I anxiously planned my day around the possible delivery date. Surprisingly, I get this phone call on the Saturday before from the transport guy saying that he will be arriving in the evening, "Do you have time to pick up the car?" "Hell yeah!"
I get a call a few hours later that the transport driver has arrived at the location near my house that can accommodate a semi. My wife and I quickly drive down to the shopping center to pick up the car.
As you can imagine, I am ecstatic that my Porsche has finally arrived. The transport driver takes the car off the truck and I examine the car carefully with the transport driver pointing out various imperfections but not out of line for a car with 49k miles. I complete the paperwork and finally hop in. I take the key in my right hand and I'm about to start the car, duh!, remembering that the ignition is on the left. I look around to make sure no Rennlisters see me do that.
I press the clutch in, hmm, kinda heavy, but I dismiss it thinking that I'm in a freaking PORSCHE and it is supposed to be heavy. I start her up and the glorious sound of the flat 6 fills the cabin. I think, "I don't need the sports exhaust.....yet.." I carefully pull away, I'm thinking "Hmm the clutch engages, high, well every car is somewhat different in engagement point, I'm in my own 911 oh YEAH!!"
Fast forward 700 miles about a month a later I bring the car into my local Porsche dealer for State inspection, and for them to check the clutch because in addition to the heavy feel and high engagement there is a slight "judder" when creeping. Lo and behold the dealer tells me I need a new clutch for $4k. I contact my selling dealer and naturally they state that the car was totally fine because the service manager, pre owned manager, mechanic drove it and the car displayed no issues what so ever. He also suggested that the dealer that my car was at was trying to make extra money.
Excerpt from the email sent to me by the sales manager:
"As the car was delivered to you in early July and over 500 miles have been driven since, we cannot guarantee the current condition of the vehicle or the conditions which how it was driven since you've taken delivery."
Since I have taken delivery of the car, I have driven it only on suburban roads and highways, taking wonderful early Sunday morning drives around my area. I have picked up and dropped off my children from summer camp and various activities, marveling at the versatility of the 911. As far as experience in driving a manual transmission, I have owned manual transmission cars since 1993 starting with a Honda Prelude, E30, E36 BMW M3, Audi S4, Subaru WRX,WRX STi, Lotus Elise, BMW M5, BMW M Coupe, Miata, CTS-V, VW GTI, BMW 135i, BMW M Roadster. I have never needed to replace the clutch in any of these vehicles.
I understand that the clutch is not a covered component in the CPO warranty as I have been told repeatedly. But assuming that the clutch was fine when it was inspected 700 miles ago, there must be some sort of component failure that would cause premature wear, which would be covered. If that is not the case, then "111 point inspection" is flawed or just a hollow promise.
And yes, I think that after 49k miles the clutch on a AWD vehicle has a strong possibility of replacement due to wear and tear. That's why I paid a premium for a CPO assuming that the "111 point" inspection would uncover that and that it would be taken care of.
Needless to say, I'm extremely unhappy with the vaunted CPO 111 point inspection and all the marketing BS that allows them to charge a premium on the car.
You would think after so many cars I would be smarter and get a PPI and not trust the dealer, but I was seduced by the beautiful lines and the awesome driving experience of a 911.
So what can I do now? Well, I contacted the selling dealer, PCNA, and well, this forum post. We'll see what happens. Hopefully this will be resolved to my satisfaction.
Get a PPI from a trusted source and go and drive the car personally, and yup, caveat emptor even if its Porsche Certified Pre-Owned.
I finally purchased my 1st Porsche a CPO 997.2 Carrera 4, with 49k miles on it from an out of state dealer and no, I did not get a PPI. My delivery was scheduled for a Monday and I anxiously planned my day around the possible delivery date. Surprisingly, I get this phone call on the Saturday before from the transport guy saying that he will be arriving in the evening, "Do you have time to pick up the car?" "Hell yeah!"
I get a call a few hours later that the transport driver has arrived at the location near my house that can accommodate a semi. My wife and I quickly drive down to the shopping center to pick up the car.
As you can imagine, I am ecstatic that my Porsche has finally arrived. The transport driver takes the car off the truck and I examine the car carefully with the transport driver pointing out various imperfections but not out of line for a car with 49k miles. I complete the paperwork and finally hop in. I take the key in my right hand and I'm about to start the car, duh!, remembering that the ignition is on the left. I look around to make sure no Rennlisters see me do that.
I press the clutch in, hmm, kinda heavy, but I dismiss it thinking that I'm in a freaking PORSCHE and it is supposed to be heavy. I start her up and the glorious sound of the flat 6 fills the cabin. I think, "I don't need the sports exhaust.....yet.." I carefully pull away, I'm thinking "Hmm the clutch engages, high, well every car is somewhat different in engagement point, I'm in my own 911 oh YEAH!!"
Fast forward 700 miles about a month a later I bring the car into my local Porsche dealer for State inspection, and for them to check the clutch because in addition to the heavy feel and high engagement there is a slight "judder" when creeping. Lo and behold the dealer tells me I need a new clutch for $4k. I contact my selling dealer and naturally they state that the car was totally fine because the service manager, pre owned manager, mechanic drove it and the car displayed no issues what so ever. He also suggested that the dealer that my car was at was trying to make extra money.
Excerpt from the email sent to me by the sales manager:
"As the car was delivered to you in early July and over 500 miles have been driven since, we cannot guarantee the current condition of the vehicle or the conditions which how it was driven since you've taken delivery."
Since I have taken delivery of the car, I have driven it only on suburban roads and highways, taking wonderful early Sunday morning drives around my area. I have picked up and dropped off my children from summer camp and various activities, marveling at the versatility of the 911. As far as experience in driving a manual transmission, I have owned manual transmission cars since 1993 starting with a Honda Prelude, E30, E36 BMW M3, Audi S4, Subaru WRX,WRX STi, Lotus Elise, BMW M5, BMW M Coupe, Miata, CTS-V, VW GTI, BMW 135i, BMW M Roadster. I have never needed to replace the clutch in any of these vehicles.
I understand that the clutch is not a covered component in the CPO warranty as I have been told repeatedly. But assuming that the clutch was fine when it was inspected 700 miles ago, there must be some sort of component failure that would cause premature wear, which would be covered. If that is not the case, then "111 point inspection" is flawed or just a hollow promise.
And yes, I think that after 49k miles the clutch on a AWD vehicle has a strong possibility of replacement due to wear and tear. That's why I paid a premium for a CPO assuming that the "111 point" inspection would uncover that and that it would be taken care of.
Needless to say, I'm extremely unhappy with the vaunted CPO 111 point inspection and all the marketing BS that allows them to charge a premium on the car.
You would think after so many cars I would be smarter and get a PPI and not trust the dealer, but I was seduced by the beautiful lines and the awesome driving experience of a 911.
So what can I do now? Well, I contacted the selling dealer, PCNA, and well, this forum post. We'll see what happens. Hopefully this will be resolved to my satisfaction.
Get a PPI from a trusted source and go and drive the car personally, and yup, caveat emptor even if its Porsche Certified Pre-Owned.
BTW based off that photo, your 911 looks incredible.
08-12-2016, 08:51 PM
#26
Here is the Porsche form for the 111 points.
https://www.nadaguides.com/Cars/Cert...-checklist.pdf
Request the form, which will have "clutch pedal action" marked as fail or pass. It will also have the name of the person who did the test.
If they refuse to give you this sheet or say they cannot find it they are in violation of Porsche's CPO program. Tell them that you will sort with out with Porsche if there is no progress. If they give you the sheet and it says "pass" you can document the clutch point with a video and the opinion of the new dealer, send it to the selling dealer and again threaten that the next step is PCA.
https://www.nadaguides.com/Cars/Cert...-checklist.pdf
Request the form, which will have "clutch pedal action" marked as fail or pass. It will also have the name of the person who did the test.
If they refuse to give you this sheet or say they cannot find it they are in violation of Porsche's CPO program. Tell them that you will sort with out with Porsche if there is no progress. If they give you the sheet and it says "pass" you can document the clutch point with a video and the opinion of the new dealer, send it to the selling dealer and again threaten that the next step is PCA.
08-12-2016, 09:09 PM
#27
Drifting
Good info there...
When I was buying my CPO 997 Rusnak in Thousand Oaks emailed me this along with the DME report without me asking. They just wanted full transparency.
When I was buying my CPO 997 Rusnak in Thousand Oaks emailed me this along with the DME report without me asking. They just wanted full transparency.
Here is the Porsche form for the 111 points.
https://www.nadaguides.com/Cars/Cert...-checklist.pdf
Request the form, which will have "clutch pedal action" marked as fail or pass. It will also have the name of the person who did the test.
https://www.nadaguides.com/Cars/Cert...-checklist.pdf
Request the form, which will have "clutch pedal action" marked as fail or pass. It will also have the name of the person who did the test.
08-13-2016, 04:31 AM
#29
But that's what transparency is for. And now my next Porsche I'll look at them again
